Gibson 'oddball' stoptail placement, tension = magic for Larry Carlton, Robben Ford

[jb_abides]

Interesting nugget: Joe Glaser and Rick Wheeler, guitar tech for Larry Carlton and Robben Ford discuss how they applied Larry Carlton’s 335 tailpiece spacing measurements -- which were a non-standard Gibson Kalamazoo factory oddity -- to Ford's Riviera, which unexpectedly improved tension, sustain, and overall feel.

Discussion starts ~6:28 mark, video queued up [of course the whole thing is a good watch]

I wonder what the magic measurement is?

While not going to modify an exsiting stoptail, it'd be cool if ever changing from a Bigsby...

 

[Subliminal lanimilbuS]

Interesting nugget: Joe Glaser and Rick Wheeler, guitar tech for Larry Carlton and Robben Ford discuss how they applied Larry Carlton’s 335 tailpiece spacing measurements -- which were a non-standard Gibson Kalamazoo factory oddity -- to Ford's Riviera, which unexpectedly improved tension, sustain, and overall feel.

Discussion starts ~6:28 mark, video queued up [of course the whole things is a good watch]

I wonder what the magic measurement is?

While not going to modify an exsiting stoptail, it'd be cool if ever changing from a Bigsby...

Interesting video jb. I just went to look at 64 335's and noticed right away that there seems to be some variance in bridge to tail piece spacing and bridge to pickup spacing. I just assumed something like that would be quite standard with a template or something. I am going to do some more looking on the subject. The picture I put below is the first two I looked at. I am going to look at other years too.

It was also interesting to hear him say the Riviera, which sat under his piano for 25 years as he thought of it was a jazz guitar, turned out to be the sound he has sonically been searching for. I have a pair of gold mini humbuckers with rings from a 1964 Sheraton. Most likely salvaged from a broken guitar many years ago as they are in quite excellent shape. They will be exactly the same as the ones in his 66. I have been wondering what to do with them. I have never tried them in a guitar and was thinking about selling them. Now I am thinking it might be worth trying them before selling them.

 

[renderit]

A lot of those placements may be due to the fact that many may have been conversions from the trapeze over the years.

When I first started working on guitars for others that was a big thing (replacing the trapeze set ups) and I am sure many others did it as well.

I generally placed the stop tail where the customer wanted it as there was no "standard" because they didn't come that way from the factory.

 

[Highmass]

Interesting nugget: Joe Glaser and Rick Wheeler, guitar tech for Larry Carlton and Robben Ford discuss how they applied Larry Carlton’s 335 tailpiece spacing measurements -- which were a non-standard Gibson Kalamazoo factory oddity -- to Ford's Riviera, which unexpectedly improved tension, sustain, and overall feel.

Discussion starts ~6:28 mark, video queued up [of course the whole thing is a good watch]

I wonder what the magic measurement is?

While not going to modify an exsiting stoptail, it'd be cool if ever changing from a Bigsby...

The reason that Carlton´s ES335 has an unusual placement is very simple. Most sources says that the guitar is a 1969 model (Reverb says 1968). Late sixties ES335 models had a trapeze tailpiece (It was introduced late 1965/early 1966). So the reason that the tailpiece is oddly placed, is simply that an unqualified idiot converted the guitar, without checking out where it was supposed to be.

 

[jb_abides]

Apparently, the 'idiot' pulled off a 'brilliant' move.

 

[charliechitlins]

This made a huge difference

 

[Subliminal lanimilbuS]

A lot of those placements may be due to the fact that many may have been conversions from the trapeze over the years.

When I first started working on guitars for others that was a big thing (replacing the trapeze set ups) and I am sure many others did it as well.

I generally placed the stop tail where the customer wanted it as there was no "standard" because they didn't come that way from the factory.

The 335's I was looking at were pre trapeze.

 

[Subliminal lanimilbuS]

There are guitars that could have had a bigsby or the like that could have been modded. I think most of those still had the inserts though. Will have to look at that.

 

[Subliminal lanimilbuS]

There also seems to be some variance to the tilt of the bridge. To me it looks like there was no template involved and the decision as to where to put the posts in was left to the person putting them in.

 

[gary buff]

I've read that that was one reason why they went to harmonica bridges with increased saddle travel later--the abr-1s didn't have enough saddle travel to intonate possibly/probably b/c they were in the wrong place.

 

[charliechitlins]

That harmonica bridge is odious.
I've got wraptails, TOMs and rosewood saddles with great intonation.
The need for that much travel stems purely from manufacturing deficiencies.

 

[Subliminal lanimilbuS]

I actually liked those harmonica bridges. Apart from the first year when they were hollow bent metal. They felt super comfortable and that huge mass of brass sounded good. I had one on a guitar when floyds and kahlers were becoming the norm so I never thought about them looking bad compared to the hugeness of those things. The zinc saddles they originally used can degrade, but they can be replaced with steel or brass. I would love to try one of those bridges with brass saddles. I always wanted a guitar like below. Has a huge tailpiece as well.

 

[gary buff]

Here's a beaut with a replaced tp, no affil...I always loved the wood on those. I've heard (second- or third-hand) that they sound brittle b/c of all that maple but I've never played one through an amp so I don't really know. Same for the L-6S which is also all-maple.

1974 Gibson L-5S | Garys Classic Guitars & Vintage Guitars LLC

1974 Gibson L-5S, Cherry Sunburst, Deluxe model, Beautiful Flamed Maple body, Ebony fingerboard with heart of Abalone inlays, Gold hardware, replaced tailpiece, Great low action, Very attractive guitar that is super easy to play! EC, OHSC, $6,995

www.garysguitars.com

 

[Subliminal lanimilbuS]

Here's a beaut with a replaced tp, no affil...I always loved the wood on those. I've heard (second- or third-hand) that they sound brittle b/c of all that maple but I've never played one through an amp so I don't really know. Same for the L-6S which is also all-maple.

1974 Gibson L-5S | Garys Classic Guitars & Vintage Guitars LLC

1974 Gibson L-5S, Cherry Sunburst, Deluxe model, Beautiful Flamed Maple body, Ebony fingerboard with heart of Abalone inlays, Gold hardware, replaced tailpiece, Great low action, Very attractive guitar that is super easy to play! EC, OHSC, $6,995

www.garysguitars.com

I have never had the chance to own one, but I have played them a couple times in the last 20 years. Totally not what I was expecting in regards to the all maple body, neck and ebony fretboard. I built an all maple body for a strat neck years ago and it was bright. The L5-S guitars I played had a very refined and smooth sound. I didn't find them particularly bright or brittle. Solid sounding for lack of a better term. Don't know why. It actually made me want one all the more. Not sure if they are all that way. The ones I played were in the middle years of their making like the one I posted. Don't know if the stop tail changes things or what the early low imp pickup ones are like. Maybe the brittle comments came from people using the low imp ones directly into an amplifier. Without a low to high transformer I imagine they would sound very thin.