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ideal conversion candidates + general conversion info?

pinefd

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
Messages
3,060
What about this one? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1952-Les-Paul-to-1959-Burst-conversion-/252289434011?

Can you start with a no issues '52 and put all of this into it for less that $28k? I have no idea because I have never shopped this stuff out.

Tom, when you buy a conversion already done and loaded with vintage parts, it's going to be quite pricey. As it should be. I remember not long ago, that Uncle Lou was selling all the parts needed for a 'burst (not including the actual husk) for around $65K, I believe.

If I'm going to spend big bucks for a guitar loaded with vintage parts, I'd prefer to buy an original guitar, with its own original parts. That's the conclusion I reached when first looking for a conversion, and ultimately how I ended up with my 'burst.

If I'm going to buy a conversion, I really don't want to buy a bunch of vintage parts with it (unless it's at a great price), because I already have quite a few vintage and/or great repro parts that I can throw into the guitar...including a set of PAFs and a set of Patent # pickups. And anything that I don't already have, I can take my time acquiring, or I'll do without (e.g., vintage pup rings). I would bet that a lot of people looking for a conversion are in the same boat as me, in that they want a reasonably price "burst", and either have some parts they can throw into it, or can upgrade over time.

So for me, I could probably find a no issues '52 for around $12 - $14K, and invest another $3500 for a conversion and paint job (the approximate going rate for this type of work, last I checked). I look at all the parts I have laying around as a sunk cost, so the out-of-pocket cost to me for a conversion would be (assuming a no issues guitar) approximately $15.5K - $17.5K. But to be honest with you, I would never do that to a no issues guitar, and would likely be looking to spend more like $6 - $9K for a nice issues guitar. In that case, my total out-of-pocket cost would be closer to $10-12K.


Frank
 

T.Allen

Moderator
Joined
Sep 11, 2014
Messages
2,662
I have seen some conversions going for $40k + and have been for sale for many years. The guy is throwing a "fishing line" out there in hopes of hooking a sucker.

I see your point.
 

smitty.west

New member
Joined
Mar 27, 2015
Messages
63
Amen.

The opening post is chapter and verse from the internet Les Paul manifesto. You want to buy a $10,000 guitar and send it to some guy in Sweden who you read about on the internet and wait who knows how long, it just doesn't make any sense.

If you really have to have a conversion, buy one that's already done. There's always plenty for sale. I think some guy on this forum has a conversion factory in his back bedroom and he's always got a few retopped butcher jobs to sell.

huh?

i actually own a guitar (that happens to currently be listed in the classifieds section) made by that "guy in Sweden who you read about on the internet", have another on order and have played countless others built by him.
my wanting to have the conversion done by johan-- beyond being a dream at this point for reasons mentioned in my initial post-- stems from first hand experience with his incredibly high quality work and trusting the word of people i personally know who've had conversions carried out by him.
these are people who've handled dozens of bursts and know what they're talking about- not some random keyboard warriors. what doesn't make any sense to me is your post.

why so bitter?
 
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smitty.west

New member
Joined
Mar 27, 2015
Messages
63
Tom, when you buy a conversion already done and loaded with vintage parts, it's going to be quite pricey. As it should be. I remember not long ago, that Uncle Lou was selling all the parts needed for a 'burst (not including the actual husk) for around $65K, I believe.

If I'm going to spend big bucks for a guitar loaded with vintage parts, I'd prefer to buy an original guitar, with its own original parts. That's the conclusion I reached when first looking for a conversion, and ultimately how I ended up with my 'burst.

If I'm going to buy a conversion, I really don't want to buy a bunch of vintage parts with it (unless it's at a great price), because I already have quite a few vintage and/or great repro parts that I can throw into the guitar...including a set of PAFs and a set of Patent # pickups. And anything that I don't already have, I can take my time acquiring, or I'll do without (e.g., vintage pup rings). I would bet that a lot of people looking for a conversion are in the same boat as me, in that they want a reasonably price "burst", and either have some parts they can throw into it, or can upgrade over time.

So for me, I could probably find a no issues '52 for around $12 - $14K, and invest another $3500 for a conversion and paint job (the approximate going rate for this type of work, last I checked). I look at all the parts I have laying around as a sunk cost, so the out-of-pocket cost to me for a conversion would be (assuming a no issues guitar) approximately $15.5K - $17.5K. But to be honest with you, I would never do that to a no issues guitar, and would likely be looking to spend more like $6 - $9K for a nice issues guitar. In that case, my total out-of-pocket cost would be closer to $10-12K.



Frank

Frank, this is exactly what I intend to do. I haven't the ability to afford a real Burst-- hopefully one day-- and don't see any reason to shell out $30k+ for an already done conversion when I can find a great donor guitar for sub-$10k and then have the work carried out by an experienced luthier for another $4k tops.
Any parts I feel are fundamental to getting the guitar closer to a Burst (i.e. PAF's, wiring harness, plastic, etc.) I can acquire over time. A smart (read: patient) shopper would, IMO, be able to get a top notch Burst conversion done for $20k or less w/ all proper parts. Beautiful example you posted by the way!
 

smitty.west

New member
Joined
Mar 27, 2015
Messages
63
Believe me, when I was looking for a conversion, if I could have found a great one for a reasonable price, I would have jumped on it. They're not as common as all of you make them out to be...unless I was just looking in all the wrong places. And I was looking for a few years. The great ones are those that people either hold onto, or they try to sell for $28K+. It's the main reason I ended up doing my own conversion. And it played a major factor in why I ended up buying a 'burst. I figured if it was going to take that much $ to get a really nice conversion, then I'd rather put that money toward a 'burst. Unfortunately, not everyone can afford to do that, however.

I agree with this post, too. The only conversions I've encountered that I'd actually like to own are exactly as you say, either kept for a long time or $28k+.
They're not nearly as common as some folks here allude to and the few I've seen up for sale in recent history are a far cry from what I'd want- some are just done downright poorly and command exorbitant prices.
 

blauserk

Active member
Joined
Mar 12, 2002
Messages
1,778
I agree with this post, too. The only conversions I've encountered that I'd actually like to own are exactly as you say, either kept for a long time or $28k+.
They're not nearly as common as some folks here allude to and the few I've seen up for sale in recent history are a far cry from what I'd want- some are just done downright poorly and command exorbitant prices.

I'd be interested in what you'd "actually like to own," because that may really affect the likelihood of buying a conversion that is already complete. My Mirabella conversion (which never "went on the market"; I learned of it just asking around and bought it before it was ever listed for sale) is a goldtop. You pay a premium for a flametop conversion (whether original off-center top, retop, or veneer top). I haven't even been looking and I've stumbled across or been offered a half-dozen no-breaks conversions in the past 5-6 years for prices that struck me as reasonable. Admittedly all but two were goldtops (and one was a plaintop, although it was gorgeous when a bad home refin was professionally re-done). Here's the lone flametop, which had a veneer top:

Brian_McCombs_conversion.jpg
 

DANELECTRO

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 24, 2003
Messages
6,318
I've seen many conversions with ridiculous prices as high as $30K or more. What I find really bizarre, is that if you take most any vintage guitar, rout it for different pickups, refinish it, and replace most of it parts, at best it's value is going to be about half the value of a decent example. On the other hand, you can take a clean all original 52 Goldtop which is worth about $15, do all of the above to it, and add about $6-8K in parts to it and suddenly it's worth $30K? Going by all the normal rules, a 52 conversion with PAFs should be about $15K.
 

lpnv59

All Access/Backstage Pass
Joined
Jul 15, 2001
Messages
10,725
There is something to be said for getting one already done. You get to feel it and hear it first. The changes made to a'52-'56 Gold top into a '57 or '59 isn't always for the better. I've seen it more than a few times where the end result was a let down. I picked up a professionally done conversion at a show once. It looked really nice but it felt absolutely horrible to me. Neck pitch was steep. You could have fit 4 thumb wheels under that ABR.....I also recall a friend I know who has had several conversions done. Two came out visually stunning, but he was personally a bit dissatisfied with the tone of one, a total refin late '55 ABR. It just didn't like humbuckers as much as it did the original P90's. The 2nd was a basket case that needed much work. It was a great effort and it went to someone who played it first and loves it. My own experiences with the handful of conversion projects I've done in the last 40 years has been 50/50. Some were disappointments. Some were absolutely to die for. So on the rare occasion one of those tdf conversions ever comes up for sale.....you'll pay for that.
 
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oldsongs

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Joined
Jan 30, 2015
Messages
308
huh?

i actually own a guitar (that happens to currently be listed in the classifieds section) made by that "guy in Sweden who you read about on the internet", have another on order and have played countless others built by him.
my wanting to have the conversion done by johan-- beyond being a dream at this point for reasons mentioned in my initial post-- stems from first hand experience with his incredibly high quality work and trusting the word of people i personally know who've had conversions carried out by him.
these are people who've handled dozens of bursts and know what they're talking about- not some random keyboard warriors. you going on about stuff you clearly don't know about is what doesn't make any sense to me.

why so bitter?

Oh, you're the guy offering to trade some extra special Gustavsson in exchange for a long list of much more desirable guitars. I remember snickering at that one. Have you found anybody with an all original 1959 Strat that would rather have a JG?

I'm not bitter, just experienced. I don't believe in hype. I prefer practicality and guitars I can hold in my hands. I don't send my old guitars to far off lands and I don't believe in magical elves. You never know how a guitar is going to turn out when the work is done. And I don't care what any builder's reputation is, I want to evaluate the finished product and decide whether to buy it. When you go through an expensive multi-year process you end up with a guitar that may or may not fit the bill. But it will cost a ton of money. And it will take a long time. And it will be painful. Nothing practical about a guitar that exists only in your dreams.

I would also never risk sending such an expensive guitar outside the US or trying to import it back into the country. If my old Gibsons get worked on, it's at a trusted shop where I can stop in and see how it's going and take part in the process. Something goes wrong in Sweden, plans change, what are you going to do? You are putting a big chunk of money under someone else's control in a place where you can't get to it.

I also believe in the P-90 pickup. I love humbuckers too but not enough to sacrifice one of my babies for the burst mirage. Put the router down and learn to love the guitar the way it was made. I don't want some luthier's modified version of a Gibson, I want my old goldtop the way Gibson made it.
 

T.Allen

Moderator
Joined
Sep 11, 2014
Messages
2,662
Oh, you're the guy offering to trade some extra special Gustavsson in exchange for a long list of much more desirable guitars. I remember snickering at that one. Have you found anybody with an all original 1959 Strat that would rather have a JG?

I'm not bitter, just experienced. I don't believe in hype. I prefer practicality and guitars I can hold in my hands. I don't send my old guitars to far off lands and I don't believe in magical elves. You never know how a guitar is going to turn out when the work is done. And I don't care what any builder's reputation is, I want to evaluate the finished product and decide whether to buy it. When you go through an expensive multi-year process you end up with a guitar that may or may not fit the bill. But it will cost a ton of money. And it will take a long time. And it will be painful. Nothing practical about a guitar that exists only in your dreams.

I would also never risk sending such an expensive guitar outside the US or trying to import it back into the country. If my old Gibsons get worked on, it's at a trusted shop where I can stop in and see how it's going and take part in the process. Something goes wrong in Sweden, plans change, what are you going to do? You are putting a big chunk of money under someone else's control in a place where you can't get to it.

I also believe in the P-90 pickup. I love humbuckers too but not enough to sacrifice one of my babies for the burst mirage. Put the router down and learn to love the guitar the way it was made. I don't want some luthier's modified version of a Gibson, I want my old goldtop the way Gibson made it.

What? Believe man, believe!
 

jimmi

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 8, 2012
Messages
2,077
I've seen many conversions with ridiculous prices as high as $30K or more. What I find really bizarre, is that if you take most any vintage guitar, rout it for different pickups, refinish it, and replace most of it parts, at best it's value is going to be about half the value of a decent example. On the other hand, you can take a clean all original 52 Goldtop which is worth about $15, do all of the above to it, and add about $6-8K in parts to it and suddenly it's worth $30K? Going by all the normal rules, a 52 conversion with PAFs should be about $15K.


I have two really good ones. Both compare well to just about any vintage LP I have played them back to back with both in tone and playability. I bought one for $200 in the 80s and the other for around 10k a few years ago (came with original harness, tuners, plastic, case, 50s ABR and tail piece, and Pat# pickups). Both are center or very close to center seam original tops. Both have oringal neck sets. The newer one I found after looking for all of 4 months. Now I have put more money into both as I upgraded the pickups in the second one and did the recent refret and binding repair (flirting with refinishing the top so it is more accurate which would be the last thing to do) and had to get a refret and replace a bad pickup in the first (after 25 years of ownership). But investment hasn't been back breaking and I have been able to pay a little as I have gone along. Along the way of buying the second, I passed on 2 refinished gold top conversions, one that sold for about $10k and the other (oringal 57 p90 guitar converted) for about $16k, two off center seam conversions with nice tops going for about mid teens and have seen at least 3-4 others since then and I haven't been looking. Also seen at least 3-4 candidates (again not been looking) that have had previous routes or other issues that would make them better conversion than restoration candidates. Wilko sold his excellent looking conversion here this summer.

My my point is that there are plenty of them out there if you really look that have been converted or probably should be and they aren't exorbitantly priced. There is no need in my opinion in converting a goldtop that hasn't been routed already or have some other major issue that would make a good restoration unlikely.

Now, it would take a lot to get me to give up either of mine so I do agree buying a good one once it is done correctly might take more cash than it would to run your own conversion....which brings me back to my prior point. Find one already partially converted or a basket case that needs help and you get a great guitar and the satisfactions of the experience for a reasonable amount of money.
 

Tom Wittrock

Les Paul Forum Co-Owner
Joined
Aug 2, 2001
Messages
42,567
Conversion?

What more do you need? :hmm

917_p43060.jpg





All depends on your own wants and needs. :ganz

:salude
 

API

Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2007
Messages
241
Oh, you're the guy offering to trade some extra special Gustavsson in exchange for a long list of much more desirable guitars. I remember snickering at that one. Have you found anybody with an all original 1959 Strat that would rather have a JG?

I'm not bitter, just experienced. I don't believe in hype. I prefer practicality and guitars I can hold in my hands. I don't send my old guitars to far off lands and I don't believe in magical elves. You never know how a guitar is going to turn out when the work is done. And I don't care what any builder's reputation is, I want to evaluate the finished product and decide whether to buy it. When you go through an expensive multi-year process you end up with a guitar that may or may not fit the bill. But it will cost a ton of money. And it will take a long time. And it will be painful. Nothing practical about a guitar that exists only in your dreams.

I would also never risk sending such an expensive guitar outside the US or trying to import it back into the country. If my old Gibsons get worked on, it's at a trusted shop where I can stop in and see how it's going and take part in the process. Something goes wrong in Sweden, plans change, what are you going to do? You are putting a big chunk of money under someone else's control in a place where you can't get to it.

I also believe in the P-90 pickup. I love humbuckers too but not enough to sacrifice one of my babies for the burst mirage. Put the router down and learn to love the guitar the way it was made. I don't want some luthier's modified version of a Gibson, I want my old goldtop the way Gibson made it.

Your loss...
 

fcsnut

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Joined
Sep 15, 2015
Messages
248
I find it to be a shame that anyone would think a nice, collectable condition Goldtop could be and "ideal" conversion candidate.
Very sad. :dang


I find it more sad that people horde these instruments and leave them in cases to drive value up, so most people want bursts because of the sound that it makes, nothing comes close... I appreciate the whole custodian spiel but it's really just excuses for our fanaticism, and that's what REAL museums are for. Myself being a player will absolutely make no apology for wanting to butcher a 52 to give it new life as a 59 replica, and I would do it more than once. :fc
 

Tom Wittrock

Les Paul Forum Co-Owner
Joined
Aug 2, 2001
Messages
42,567
I find it more sad that people horde these instruments and leave them in cases to drive value up, so most people want bursts because of the sound that it makes, nothing comes close... I appreciate the whole custodian spiel but it's really just excuses for our fanaticism, and that's what REAL museums are for. Myself being a player will absolutely make no apology for wanting to butcher a 52 to give it new life as a 59 replica, and I would do it more than once. :fc

You could butcher a 59 to give it new life as a 52 replica, if you wanted. No apologies needed.

However, both of those scenarios drive the prices up.

But it seems [to me] impatient to destroy a vintage original [that is sought after for what it is by many people], just to make something that can just as well be done with a more ideal conversion candidate.
The owner can do as he pleases, of course. :salude
 

JBLPplayer

Active member
Joined
Sep 29, 2010
Messages
1,136
With Conversions you have to ask yourself will the guitar sound better with Humbuckers. Surprisingly most times no. Right now I have two burst Spot and Carmelita out here on tour. Both guitars are stellar. I also have a 57 TV special that sounds incredible as well... There is a significant price difference between the burst and the special but if I had to do a show with only the special it would sound fine. You really need to take stock of what you are destroying vs what you are getting in return. Most conversions I've played with exception of a few "GI Paul" being one of them, played stiff and would be put in the very average section.
You can rule the world with a 52 albeit with a Glaser tail piece. Or not... Just figure out how to make music on what you have. Good luck. :salude
Joe B
 

abalonevintage

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Joined
Dec 31, 2002
Messages
3,186
I also have a 57 TV special that sounds incredible as well... There is a significant price difference between the burst and the special but if I had to do a show with only the special it would sound fine.
Joe B

My '52 tuneomatic conversion is my daily driver...it doesn't look as awesome as my Burst, but it is a beast...an amazing guitar. No one cared when I converted it in 1985, and in fact, most guitarist at the time would have said I did the world a favor.

I'm glad I didn't put PAFs in it. No reason to.

image.jpg
 
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