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The Les Paul as investment

Big Al

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
14,537
WTF!WTF!!WTF!!!:bigal:bigal:bigal:bigal

I am so sick and tired of these portfolio dividend commodity investors and their dumb ass speculation threads!!

What, Gibson is the Franklin Mint?

Buy some pork bellies or gold coins and quit ruining my musical instruments. Invest in vintage guitars, your ilk has already ruined that. Remember the early 2000's.:bigal:spabout:hee:rolleyes:


I can buy a great, American made guitar that pays dividends of tone, playability and the pleasure of owning a finely crafted beautiful guitar. If I don't abuse it and take reasonable care, odds are I won't loose my original investment if I sell after a couple decades. Good 'nuf fo me.:hank:hank
 

Big Al

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
14,537
BACK FROM THE DEAD!

I googled market future trends on les pauls and this was one of the first google returns.

it's funny really, I am a very humble independent shop (because just being a musician doesn't cut it), and anything from 1988 to 2010 is my bread and butter. I bet in 2003 the msrp on some of the models brand new was about what they might sell for used now, but there are folks out there ready to spend some coin on something like an early Les Paul Classic from the 90's, nearly twice what they sold for MSRP back then. Especially the plus and premium plus, and especially if it says 'model' instead of 'classic'. It was a nice 1960 reissue more or less, with a short tenon. I bet in 2003 you could pick up a les paul classic premium plus from say 1996 for 750-900..... try 2500 or more today.

A lot of those guitars hold high regard now, some people call it 'good wood' but whatever you want to call it, the beginning of Henry J's tenure holds value to folks now. Gibson's triumph and rebirth from the Norlin era, and a serious effort to reclaim the brand (but without the pressure and b/s that social media and brand influence hold over it while they are trying to do it once again today....'play authentic' and Mark). You have to recognize a decent product in a lineup with the junk, and be able to qualify the differences. I think they are great investments, because the future will always find a way to cut cost and try to follow inflation.

Thoughts? I love talking about stuff like this.

Well, your wrong about the price of used Classic plus in 2003. They held value as soon as the MODEL/CLASSIC thing happened. The whole early Classic market history is unique for having been fueled by misinformation and deliberate pumping for profit and having short lived desirable specs that make a small group collectable. Unlike the completely overhyped and very misrepresented Les Paul Faded which was pumped up online by Larry Corsa to pimp his makeover service. Lot's to talk about with these two and hard lessons to learn. Savvy investors don't fall for this but plenty of online readers who don't research facts get taken advantage of and continue the ruse to recoup their investment or protect it.
 
Last edited:

renderit

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 19, 2009
Messages
10,951
ALL the LP's I have bought since 2013 have been a marvelous investment!

I play ALL of them.

I love to look at ALL of them.

They bring me more pleasure than any person should have.

Selling ANY of them would be an incalculable loss!

Though some day I will HAVE to sell them.

That day will hold a greater loss than money...
 

Ndavis1971

Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2019
Messages
30
WTF!WTF!!WTF!!!:bigal:bigal:bigal:bigal

I am so sick and tired of these portfolio dividend commodity investors and their dumb ass speculation threads!!

What, Gibson is the Franklin Mint?

Buy some pork bellies or gold coins and quit ruining my musical instruments. Invest in vintage guitars, your ilk has already ruined that. Remember the early 2000's.:bigal:spabout:hee:rolleyes:


This is the funniest shi* I’ve read in a while. Same thing happened with watches and pedals and lots of other stuff. I think all of it is a bit of a bubble. The over 40 crowd can appreciate this. The under 40 doesn’t give a rat’s ass about a vintage omega or a klon or a 59 burst. They have apple watches and protools. I’m 48 and those of my generation not only knew the bands the decade before us but decades before us. Same with movies and other arts. These kids nowadays don’t know who Chuck Berry is or who Cary Grant is or that The Band was a band. Seriously. They’re almost all cultural illiterates hooked on instant gratification and staring at screens all day. That’s your future market for guitar and watches?!?!
 

thin sissy

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
2,691
This is the funniest shi* I’ve read in a while. Same thing happened with watches and pedals and lots of other stuff. I think all of it is a bit of a bubble. The over 40 crowd can appreciate this. The under 40 doesn’t give a rat’s ass about a vintage omega or a klon or a 59 burst. They have apple watches and protools. I’m 48 and those of my generation not only knew the bands the decade before us but decades before us. Same with movies and other arts. These kids nowadays don’t know who Chuck Berry is or who Cary Grant is or that The Band was a band. Seriously. They’re almost all cultural illiterates hooked on instant gratification and staring at screens all day. That’s your future market for guitar and watches?!?!
I disagree. I'm a long way from my 40th birthday, and most of my musician friends are in their 20's. I have two 50's LP:s, and they get a LOT of appreciation and admiration from my fellow guitar players. My friends might not be ready to sacrifice as much as I have to buy these expensive guitars, but they DO give a rats ass about them. This reminds me of older generations claiming that young people no longer listen and play guitar based music. It's not true, they do, but you probably don't hang out with them and the media doesn't promote it like they used to :) .
 

RiverCityVintage

New member
Joined
Jul 23, 2019
Messages
27
I disagree. I'm a long way from my 40th birthday, and most of my musician friends are in their 20's. I have two 50's LP:s, and they get a LOT of appreciation and admiration from my fellow guitar players. My friends might not be ready to sacrifice as much as I have to buy these expensive guitars, but they DO give a rats ass about them. This reminds me of older generations claiming that young people no longer listen and play guitar based music. It's not true, they do, but you probably don't hang out with them and the media doesn't promote it like they used to :) .

lol! preach

''If I had a nickel for every time a boomer complained about a ''millennial'', I could buy a nice house in the market they completely destroyed.''


I'm turning 33 this month, I learned a lot from and admire my grandfather (APRIL 2019 RIP) who was a navy conflict vet in the pacific (something a boomer wouldn't know a thing about), I own two businesses I started from scratch, NEITHER of which had anything remotely to do with the college education the boomers told me to get that robbed me blind, and I still do not have internet on a smart phone.

Ive got a 55 gibson, a 60 gibson, a 69 gibson, and a 92 gibson, and play them through a 66 deluxe reverb. I adore them all, and I know how to fix them all, and I gig them regularly. I love a burst, and handled 4 at the philly guitar show a couple weeks ago. All 4 were 59's. I also know how to fix anything in or around my home (that I bought in this busted boomer housing economy), or with my cars, or with my lawn equipment, or anything else for that matter. I grew up on classic rock stations, hate automatic transmissions, love Chuck Berry, could give less of a crap about Cary Grant because Gregory Peck is a better actor, do not own an apple watch, and played a song by The Band today at a gig.

I also love investing in gibson guitars. I look at everything I spend money on as an opportunity to make a return, whether that's an experience or a dollar. If someone walked up to you today and offered you a thousand bucks would you say no thanks? Why bash the opportunity to make a grand then? I get storage issues, that's cool, but complaining for the sake of it is just childish. It doesn't matter if it is a monumental long term investment, it's how you look at what you spend. I put money in local energy companies and global entertainment companies, ''reinvest those dividends''... I even put some in 420 companies that boomers would have something to say about, but that doesn't make a small investment worthless. The best advice I ever got from my banker was ''some investments are good, and some are better, some are even not worth your time at all. But if I see a dollar on the ground, I am going to pick it up. I don't know anyone who wouldn't.''

Well, your wrong about the price of used Classic plus in 2003. They held value as soon as the MODEL/CLASSIC thing happened. The whole early Classic market history is unique for having been fueled by misinformation and deliberate pumping for profit and having short lived desirable specs that make a small group collectable. Unlike the completely overhyped and very misrepresented Les Paul Faded which was pumped up online by Larry Corsa to pimp his makeover service. Lot's to talk about with these two and hard lessons to learn. Savvy investors don't fall for this but plenty of online readers who don't research facts get taken advantage of and continue the ruse to recoup their investment or protect it.

My first Gibson was a Les Paul Classic premium plus. I bought it in high school for $800 so I could do led zep covers and look cool (was not cool). The pickups were awful. I saved it for 15 years, and sold it for 2799.


Anyone got anything constructive to add? Or just boomer complaints.
 

Big Al

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
14,537
Anyone who pimps themselves out as some kind of broker selling new Les Pauls for a quick significant profit is a fraud.
 

marshall1987

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,278
Help me understand all the fawning over early '90s Les Paul Classic w/ "Les Paul Model" on the headstock (pre-Historic)..

when compared to the slightly later '90s production LP Classic that have "Les Paul Classic" silkscreened on the headstock (Historic era).

So in the mid-90s Gibson changes one word on the headstock and the collector value decreases significantly?


FWIW...my friend owned one of the early Les Paul Classics (1991...??) that identified it as a "Les Paul Model". I struggled to play that guitar, what with it's super skinny neck (<0.800"), abnormally high bridge position, 10 lb. weight, green fingerboard inlays, and the awful Gibson 500T ceramic pickups and odd control cavity components. :hmm

The owner of this particular LP Classic went on and on about the Les Paul Model silkscreen as though that made all the difference in the world. I couldn't hand that guitar back to him quickly enough. :dang
 

RiverCityVintage

New member
Joined
Jul 23, 2019
Messages
27
Anyone who pimps themselves out as some kind of broker selling new Les Pauls for a quick significant profit is a fraud.

super useful, thanks for sharing. what do you do for a living?


Help me understand all the fawning over early '90s Les Paul Classic w/ "Les Paul Model" on the headstock (pre-Historic)..

when compared to the slightly later '90s production LP Classic that have "Les Paul Classic" silkscreened on the headstock (Historic era).

So in the mid-90s Gibson changes one word on the headstock and the collector value decreases significantly?


FWIW...my friend owned one of the early Les Paul Classics (1991...??) that identified it as a "Les Paul Model". I struggled to play that guitar, what with it's super skinny neck (<0.800"), abnormally high bridge position, 10 lb. weight, green fingerboard inlays, and the awful Gibson 500T ceramic pickups and odd control cavity components. :hmm

The owner of this particular LP Classic went on and on about the Les Paul Model silkscreen as though that made all the difference in the world. I couldn't hand that guitar back to him quickly enough. :dang

It didn't really mean a huge deal, but some folks really liked them because they were another first for Gibson, and that is special sometimes. No more 3 and 4 piece tops, no more 2 and 3 and 4 piece bodies. No more 3 piece necks. Just like how the new stuff might excite people now. The first classics had thin binding in the cutaway like an original, had model on the headstock instead of classic (the original story was that dealers confused them between custom shop models and production reissues because the quality was nearly the same, especially in the tops, and there were no distinguishing features to denote a difference between them). That meant a big deal since they hadn't done that on a production model except for the 59 reissue and limited models throughout the 80's, and that their change from 'model' to 'classic' coincided with the introduction of the custom shop, and it was just a very nice production era for Gibson and their QC in general. Very nice stuff.

The only bummer was the snot green inlays, and the ceramic pups. Otherwise, beautiful guitars.
 

RiverCityVintage

New member
Joined
Jul 23, 2019
Messages
27
Help me understand all the fawning over early '90s Les Paul Classic w/ "Les Paul Model" on the headstock (pre-Historic)..

when compared to the slightly later '90s production LP Classic that have "Les Paul Classic" silkscreened on the headstock (Historic era).

So in the mid-90s Gibson changes one word on the headstock and the collector value decreases significantly?


FWIW...my friend owned one of the early Les Paul Classics (1991...??) that identified it as a "Les Paul Model". I struggled to play that guitar, what with it's super skinny neck (<0.800"), abnormally high bridge position, 10 lb. weight, green fingerboard inlays, and the awful Gibson 500T ceramic pickups and odd control cavity components. :hmm

The owner of this particular LP Classic went on and on about the Les Paul Model silkscreen as though that made all the difference in the world. I couldn't hand that guitar back to him quickly enough. :dang

it's also important to know that no Classic is a Prehistoric. Prehistoric's are pre-custom shop reissues, from 83 to 93, mostly 59 flametops, and sometimes goldtop 57's, and the occasional black custom (though I am pretty sure those were production customs and folks just want to make things up and use the wrong words to advert). There were never '60 reissue Prehistorics, and never ever were they Classics. A Classic was just a 1960 tribute of sorts.
 

marshall1987

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,278
it's also important to know that no Classic is a Prehistoric. Prehistoric's are pre-custom shop reissues, from 83 to 93, mostly 59 flametops, and sometimes goldtop 57's, and the occasional black custom (though I am pretty sure those were production customs and folks just want to make things up and use the wrong words to advert). There were never '60 reissue Prehistorics, and never ever were they Classics. A Classic was just a 1960 tribute of sorts.

Thanks for the history lesson; however with respect to the Les Paul Classic guitars, I used the term "prehistoric" in the context of those instruments that were marketed and sold in the early '90s before the launch of the Historic Reissue models. I didn't suggest that the early Les Paul Classics were "prehistoric" reissue models like those from 1983 onward.
 

Ndavis1971

Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2019
Messages
30
lol! preach

''If I had a nickel for every time a boomer complained about a ''millennial'', I could buy a nice house in the market they completely destroyed.''


I'm turning 33 this month, I learned a lot from and admire my grandfather (APRIL 2019 RIP) who was a navy conflict vet in the pacific (something a boomer wouldn't know a thing about), I own two businesses I started from scratch, NEITHER of which had anything remotely to do with the college education the boomers told me to get that robbed me blind, and I still do not have internet on a smart phone.

Ive got a 55 gibson, a 60 gibson, a 69 gibson, and a 92 gibson, and play them through a 66 deluxe reverb. I adore them all, and I know how to fix them all, and I gig them regularly. I love a burst, and handled 4 at the philly guitar show a couple weeks ago. All 4 were 59's. I also know how to fix anything in or around my home (that I bought in this busted boomer housing economy), or with my cars, or with my lawn equipment, or anything else for that matter. I grew up on classic rock stations, hate automatic transmissions, love Chuck Berry, could give less of a crap about Cary Grant because Gregory Peck is a better actor, do not own an apple watch, and played a song by The Band today at a gig.

I also love investing in gibson guitars. I look at everything I spend money on as an opportunity to make a return, whether that's an experience or a dollar. If someone walked up to you today and offered you a thousand bucks would you say no thanks? Why bash the opportunity to make a grand then? I get storage issues, that's cool, but complaining for the sake of it is just childish. It doesn't matter if it is a monumental long term investment, it's how you look at what you spend. I put money in local energy companies and global entertainment companies, ''reinvest those dividends''... I even put some in 420 companies that boomers would have something to say about, but that doesn't make a small investment worthless. The best advice I ever got from my banker was ''some investments are good, and some are better, some are even not worth your time at all. But if I see a dollar on the ground, I am going to pick it up. I don't know anyone who wouldn't.''



My first Gibson was a Les Paul Classic premium plus. I bought it in high school for $800 so I could do led zep covers and look cool (was not cool). The pickups were awful. I saved it for 15 years, and sold it for 2799.


Anyone got anything constructive to add? Or just boomer complaints.


ding ding ding. We have two millennials on here who apparently can’t add. I am not a boomer. I’m Gen X. The math ain’t hard. I don’t know what it is about you guys throwing the “boomer” around indiscriminately. And I said most of you millennials. Not all. That’d be an idiotic statement. Time will tell but I’m pretty confident on my prediction that your generation and subsequent ones aren’t gonna be into vintage guitars and watches as an investment and forking about money to buy them. You’ll find out. The hard way unfortunately. But enjoy them. As long as you’re not planning on selling one day and reaping a bunch of money.
 

El Gringo

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
5,657
ALL the LP's I have bought since 2013 have been a marvelous investment!

I play ALL of them.

I love to look at ALL of them.

They bring me more pleasure than any person should have.

Selling ANY of them would be an incalculable loss!

Though some day I will HAVE to sell them.

That day will hold a greater loss than money...

Such true words and sentiment and agree 100 %
 

AA00475Bassman

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
3,769
Pay day & huge dividends are collected every time I play one of my many Historic's & they are great to look at !
 

deytookerjaabs

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 6, 2016
Messages
1,592
ding ding ding. We have two millennials on here who apparently can’t add. I am not a boomer. I’m Gen X. The math ain’t hard. I don’t know what it is about you guys throwing the “boomer” around indiscriminately. And I said most of you millennials. Not all. That’d be an idiotic statement. Time will tell but I’m pretty confident on my prediction that your generation and subsequent ones aren’t gonna be into vintage guitars and watches as an investment and forking about money to buy them. You’ll find out. The hard way unfortunately. But enjoy them. As long as you’re not planning on selling one day and reaping a bunch of money.



Math?


Hmmm.


I'd argue the opposite with my luddite math skills. There's roughly at least 18 Million+ Millionaires in the United States alone. Of course, about half these more or less likely with that much disposable income. A smaller fraction with disposable income most couldn't comprehend. But, vintage guitars are a global thing. So, add in the millionaires from England, Japan, China, etc.

Now, how many vintage guitars are out there? 5,000 or so black guard Teles, a lot less 'bursts, then you get into smaller numbers of old Martins, then work your way just every damn 50's Les Paul & Strat & Tele & Gretsch.

I think if you knew the answers here you'd find that the portion of folks with massive disposable income needed to prop up the vintage market is actually incredibly tiny. This means, the generation at large need not be interested in vintage guitars, not even close. My neighbors are in their 30's and they buy really expensive overpriced crappy "mid century furniture" for their house. They brag about what they paid for an ugly dresser, I roll my eyes and they'd think me nuts to buy a vintage guitar all the same.

So, as long as a tiny minority are into vintage guitars and that minority is not simply satisfied with 5 or 10 of them but often times needs to fill a warehouse then you can rest assured the market is going nowhere sans an all encompassing economic catastrophe. That's the basic math: not a lot of vintage guitars, tons, millions, of people who can afford damn near all of them.



Now, me, I've definitely been the benefactor of selling guitars years later for much more than my buying price thanks to the market. But, I don't brag about it because it's not a personal accomplishment which should imbue pride in anyone. It's just taking advantage of market forces larger than myself, all I did was keep the guitar around for a while, lol. I could brag about my "investment bravado" but I'll leave that to others. Sure, if I didn't just buy what I like I'd probably do decent at flipping them too. I'm just not into the whole "picking money up off the ground" mentality. If you are, good for you.
 

thin sissy

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
2,691
ding ding ding. We have two millennials on here who apparently can’t add. I am not a boomer. I’m Gen X. The math ain’t hard. I don’t know what it is about you guys throwing the “boomer” around indiscriminately. And I said most of you millennials. Not all. That’d be an idiotic statement. Time will tell but I’m pretty confident on my prediction that your generation and subsequent ones aren’t gonna be into vintage guitars and watches as an investment and forking about money to buy them. You’ll find out. The hard way unfortunately. But enjoy them. As long as you’re not planning on selling one day and reaping a bunch of money.

Can you read? I never called you a boomer, I don't base my opinion of others on their age, you seem very hung up on it. You didn't write "most of you millenials", I've quoted what you wrote below. Like I tried to point out, my first hand experience doesn't confirm your opinion, but believe what you will :)

IF vintage guitars become worthless in the future (I personally doubt it, because of the reasons deytookerjaabs wrote), then I'll gladly be the one buying them dirt cheap :) This is because I love them as instruments and don't plan on selling them.

This is the funniest shi* I’ve read in a while. Same thing happened with watches and pedals and lots of other stuff. I think all of it is a bit of a bubble. The over 40 crowd can appreciate this. The under 40 doesn’t give a rat’s ass about a vintage omega or a klon or a 59 burst. They have apple watches and protools. I’m 48 and those of my generation not only knew the bands the decade before us but decades before us. Same with movies and other arts. These kids nowadays don’t know who Chuck Berry is or who Cary Grant is or that The Band was a band. Seriously. They’re almost all cultural illiterates hooked on instant gratification and staring at screens all day. That’s your future market for guitar and watches?!?!
 

TSilleck

New member
Joined
Apr 8, 2009
Messages
13
I'd like to hear your opinion of which of today's Les Paul models -- including historics, customs, and standard lines - would make the most sense in terms of investment value five or ten years in the future. That is, I want to buy a Les Paul today and be able to sell it for significantly more five years from now. Should I get a Standard, a Class 5, an Elegant, or what? Thanks.


If you collect guitars you will usually buy at retail and sell closer to wholesale. It depends on how much time you are willing to spend marketing to get the best price.
There may be a few current models that will be worth more in the future but the hope for that is not an advisable investment strategy.
 

Ndavis1971

Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2019
Messages
30
Can you read? I never called you a boomer, I don't base my opinion of others on their age, you seem very hung up on it. You didn't write "most of you millenials", I've quoted what you wrote below. Like I tried to point out, my first hand experience doesn't confirm your opinion, but believe what you will :)

IF vintage guitars become worthless in the future (I personally doubt it, because of the reasons deytookerjaabs wrote), then I'll gladly be the one buying them dirt cheap :) This is because I love them as instruments and don't plan on selling them.

yeah you’re right. It was that other guy. I had someone in another forum accuse me of being a boomer. It’s like some comeback now for criticizing someone older. Anyhow sorry about that. I got confused. It’s like some new millennial put down that keeps getting repeated. Anyhow, of course it’s a generalization. There are always exceptions. I just don’t see a market 20-30 years down the road for this stuff like there is today. It seems protools and modeling amps and all that crap is becoming the new thing. Even for guys in my age group. If there a market, I think it’ll be for museum quality stuff and for the Paul Allen types who collect very specific items. That’s my prediction. I think the bubble already has burst a bit. Vintage prices have gone down a bit.
 

Tom Wittrock

Les Paul Forum Co-Owner
Joined
Aug 2, 2001
Messages
42,567
If you collect guitars you will usually buy at retail and sell closer to wholesale. It depends on how much time you are willing to spend marketing to get the best price.
There may be a few current models that will be worth more in the future but the hope for that is not an advisable investment strategy.

Your response is 16 & 1/2 years after the question. Do you think he will see your answer? :hmm
 
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