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Valuable information to consider when evaluating the authenticity of a vintage burst

mipstoo

Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2017
Messages
142
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Thanks sweiger..! Can't see that happening somehow but at least any future buyers/victims will soon discover the truth IF they subscribe to this excellent forum.. :)
They already have been outed on another forum in the past and it didn't do you any good unfortunately. :dang

If you really want a Burst, get one from a trustworthy source and if you want to feel extra save, get another expert opinion.
If you should tumble upon a "I have this guitar but don't know what it is" deal, get two or three extra opinions before you buy.

And we're talking about the dealer, but I would be as mad with the broker, who had received negative feedback on this guitar from some knowledgeable people in the UK, and still decided it was ok for him to broker it to you, "his dear friend"...
 

Zapper

Active member
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
308
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

what about the work they did to fix a broken headstock and a dodgy pickup? I’m looking forward to finding out what they have done. You can use you new UV light to check the headstock repair they claimed to have done

They seem to have gone quiet about that... but I didn't ask them to do it so why should I pay for it..? Will be interesting to see what they've done and if it's of sufficient quality to warrant the guitars...
 
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Zapper

Active member
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
308
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Just imagine if you’d decided to keep the guitar and went with the bum steer that Tom & Terry we’re giving you! The blind leading the blind as it were. Thankfully JJ and J@S are among those who aren’t afraid to question the ‘experts’ fake news in the quest for truth. Glad you got this mess resolved.

Good point Ted, but I would have been blissfully blind too..... until trying to sell it..! Like I said it's a fabulous players guitar so I would have been quite happy with it until that point. And to be fair to Tom & Terry, as soon as they saw the UV shots they stopped commenting... In fact Terry admitted to me that he suspected the husk was fake all along and that he just wanted some of the supposedly 'vintage' parts. He reckons the M69s (if real!) would have been worth at least $20,000...! What a wiley old fox LOL! I suspect he was just trying to put you all off the scent...! :)
 
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Zapper

Active member
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
308
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

They already have been outed on another forum in the past and it didn't do you any good unfortunately. :dang

If you really want a Burst, get one from a trustworthy source and if you want to feel extra save, get another expert opinion.
If you should tumble upon a "I have this guitar but don't know what it is" deal, get two or three extra opinions before you buy.

And we're talking about the dealer, but I would be as mad with the broker, who had received negative feedback on this guitar from some knowledgeable people in the UK, and still decided it was ok for him to broker it to you, "his dear friend"...

Believe me mipstoo I'll be doing exactly that... now that I know who the trustworthy sources are. In fact if anyone comes across a half-decent players grade Burst, for up to about £70,000 (or USD85,000 in your toy money..!) then please let me know! And yes, very disappointed with the broker, who did mention that he had seen PH but that he was only trying to rip him off with a low valuation.... Hmmmm, I think we'll be "having a little chat" about that in due course....
 

surfreak

Well-known member
Joined
May 6, 2002
Messages
1,115
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Good point Ted, but I would have been blissfully blind too..... until trying to sell it..! Like I said it's a fabulous players guitar so I would have been quite happy with it until that point. And to be fair to Tom & Terry, as soon as they saw the UV shots they stopped commenting... In fact Terry admitted to me that he suspected the husk was fake all along and that he just wanted some of the supposedly 'vintage' parts. He reckons the M69s (if real!) would have been worth at least $20,000...! What a wiley old fox LOL! I suspect he was just trying to put you all off the scent...! :)

Gosh, is this the same guy of upstanding integrity, who told another guy of utmost reliability, that the guitar was 110% real, and that therefore said guy #2 believed such statement to be 1000% true?

Make sure you still have your wallet in your back pocket when you check out, mate...
 

jrgtr42

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 24, 2005
Messages
2,308
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Believe me mipstoo I'll be doing exactly that... now that I know who the trustworthy sources are. In fact if anyone comes across a half-decent players grade Burst, for up to about £70,000 (or USD85,000 in your toy money..!) then please let me know! And yes, very disappointed with the broker, who did mention that he had seen PH but that he was only trying to rip him off with a low valuation.... Hmmmm, I think we'll be "having a little chat" about that in due course....

As far as I know, even the most buggered players grade Burst is going for a lot more than that - close to double, roughly?
I saw one this morning on Reverb.com that is a refin, most electronics replaced, non-original bridge, 2 tuners replaced, they wanted $300k US for it.
Now, that is of course way too high priced, (from what I know it might be high for an unmolested one) But that's something that hit me early on in this thread, though I didn't chime in - that the price you had paid was way low for a Burst.
 

Zapper

Active member
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
308
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Gosh, is this the same guy of upstanding integrity, who told another guy of utmost reliability, that the guitar was 110% real, and that therefore said guy #2 believed such statement to be 1000% true?

Make sure you still have your wallet in your back pocket when you check out, mate...

Yep, that's them..! Unfortunately of course they latched onto T&T's opinion, which ultimately persuaded me too initially. It was only the weight of evidence from you guys that made me take a step back and think.... "hmmmm...... hang on....." :salude
 

Zapper

Active member
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
308
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

As far as I know, even the most buggered players grade Burst is going for a lot more than that - close to double, roughly?
I saw one this morning on Reverb.com that is a refin, most electronics replaced, non-original bridge, 2 tuners replaced, they wanted $300k US for it.
Now, that is of course way too high priced, (from what I know it might be high for an unmolested one) But that's something that hit me early on in this thread, though I didn't chime in - that the price you had paid was way low for a Burst.

It was this one I saw on Reverb in January for £71k (US$89k) that initially spiked my interest in buying one now while the market is (presumably like everything else) down the toilet.. It is still unsold today. It was only when I found out about Jay's one that I focused elsewhere. In fact, anyone have any views about this one as an entry-level Burst? Refin & reneck with some hooky parts ("all original or correct" apparently) but has original Lifton 5 latch case and looks nice! Serial number (apparently lol..!) is 0 1247. Shall I make an offer...?
Cheers!
Ian

https://reverb.com/item/30697676-gibson-les-paul-standard-1960-sunburst

f0ykpsch7yayhmkl3mdq.jpg


It has the maple slither under the binding (mind you so does The Nile)...

wtcvgdjywhd2oty5fgvr.jpg


Headstock looks worse than The Nile though..!!

wkisqofpixhlphnqceay.jpg


ons4wuuimuoxavkh9wvw.jpg


Bumble bees, lots of fresh solder and a f*cking great chew....!! Happy JJ LOL?!! :rofl

yrw8ueimm2qxmhxrxtyi.jpg


Long tenon looks ok to me (I'm learning..!)

nf3xbtm46alfhq4kfutg.jpg


Original PAFs?. Decal looks ok to my now expert eye (!), as does the 2 braid earth screen and the slight tool mark on the leg... Agree?

czzpxcl1ypcatiybc8wf.jpg


Ditto this one.... Fake M69s though?

twitl6ssvhshznunfzfu.jpg


Whadya think? Good value for £71,000 or approx US$89,000...?
 

SDMFVan

New member
Joined
Sep 13, 2018
Messages
17
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

I'd want to know more about the neck, ie. was it a totally new neck or repurposed from a 50's guitar? You'd assume totally new neck because of the Grovers and lack of Kluson holes, but who knows. If they built a new neck did they reuse the original fretboard? How did they come up with that serial number, etc?
 

S. Weiger

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Messages
1,744
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

OK guitars should be safe to deal with -AFAIK. Other members will chime in here soon, if not.
But a refinished (why?) and RE-necked (why? and with what neck?) legit looking burst at this price..
I didn't look it over in details, but isn't it a bit steep priced, to say the least?


EDIT: You should start another thread about future burst purchases..

.........................................
But this T&T stuff... did the experienced luthier really admit that he was suspecting your 0-2453 to be less than legit, all along, just to have "the scent" to himself?? I Can't beLIEVE it's true? ..Jeezzz... :bigal
 
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S. Weiger

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Messages
1,744
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Good point Ted, but I would have been blissfully blind too..... until trying to sell it..! Like I said it's a fabulous players guitar so I would have been quite happy with it until that point. And to be fair to Tom & Terry, as soon as they saw the UV shots they stopped commenting... In fact Terry admitted to me that he suspected the husk was fake all along and that he just wanted some of the supposedly 'vintage' parts. He reckons the M69s (if real!) would have been worth at least $20,000...! What a wiley old fox LOL! I suspect he was just trying to put you all off the scent...! :)

^^ :XRE :wah No offence, but are you SURE you did not dream this up due to a pint or 2 too many? Or is it some (bad) easter joke??
 
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Ted Nugent

Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2019
Messages
79
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Terry admitted to me that he suspected the husk was fake all along and that he just wanted some of the supposedly 'vintage' parts. He reckons the M69s (if real!) would have been worth at least $20,000...! What a wiley old fox LOL! I suspect he was just trying to put you all off the scent...!

If that's the truth, then why on earth would he convince his buddy Tom 1000% that it's a 'real 1960 Burst' and allow him to post as such in public I wonder?



After a nice and detailed conversation with Terry Mueller on this guitar, I am now agreeing with him, that this is a real 1960 Burst that has had some [not so vintage correct] work done to it.
He says......blah blah blah the neck is reworked. Still the original neck but refinished and re-logo-ed.....blah blah blah.

Old 'fox' isn't a term I would use.
 

Patek

Active member
Joined
Dec 4, 2015
Messages
415
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Believe me mipstoo I'll be doing exactly that... now that I know who the trustworthy sources are. In fact if anyone comes across a half-decent players grade Burst, for up to about £70,000 (or USD85,000 in your toy money..!) then please let me know! And yes, very disappointed with the broker, who did mention that he had seen PH but that he was only trying to rip him off with a low valuation.... Hmmmm, I think we'll be "having a little chat" about that in due course....

for that sort of coin you’re best off with an excellent condition full set 1957 gold top, practically all the same specs as a burst just different finish (obviously) and slightly different neck profile. That’s where my money would be going.

for £70k in the burst world will get you nothing but something re-necked, refinished, repro rings and all sorts of other drilled out holes and dodgy stories. Wouldn’t bother mate..


edit:- just seen you actually post one I just described for £71k !! Lessons learned, read all the way down before replying.
stay well clear of that mucked about with burst, if there is one thing I’ve learned from buying vintage gear, it is it’s not worth the hassle to get anything less than 100% straight from 100% reliable sources. Do not penny pinch, spend the extra and get it right. (Although in the burst world it’s £100/£200k ontop of the garbage; so slightly different..)Just not worth the misery unless you really are never planning on selling it, ever.
 

ourmaninthenorth

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
7,119
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

I wouldn't imagine that OK Guitars, and it's distinguished owner, would be entirely thrilled to be included in this thread, for any reason.
 

Tim

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 15, 2001
Messages
1,860
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

STOP PRESS: Elite Vintage Guitars has now agreed to reverse the deal in full and pay me an additional £500 as compensation for the hassle, stress and waste of my time. They will be returning all six of the p/x guitars in exchange for The Nile (now the World's most famous fakeburst!) as soon as the lockdown in the UK is lifted.

So, as our very own Billy Bob Shakespeare once said, "all's well that ends well"! And it's primarily down to you guys so thank you all very much for your time & effort contributing to this thread, which I'm thinking of renaming "Buying a Burst? Read this first!". Do you agree?! :)

Any chance they'll be out of business by then? You may want to undo this deal as quick as possible.
 

S. Weiger

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Messages
1,744
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

It was this one I saw on Reverb in January for £71k (US$89k) that initially spiked my interest in buying one now while the market is (presumably like everything else) down the toilet.. It is still unsold today. It was only when I found out about Jay's one that I focused elsewhere. In fact, anyone have any views about this one as an entry-level Burst? Refin & reneck with some hooky parts ("all original or correct" apparently) but has original Lifton 5 latch case and looks nice! Serial number (apparently lol..!) is 0 1247. Shall I make an offer...?
Cheers!
Ian

https://reverb.com/item/30697676-gibson-les-paul-standard-1960-sunburst

f0ykpsch7yayhmkl3mdq.jpg


It has the maple slither under the binding (mind you so does The Nile)...

wtcvgdjywhd2oty5fgvr.jpg


Headstock looks worse than The Nile though..!!

wkisqofpixhlphnqceay.jpg


ons4wuuimuoxavkh9wvw.jpg


Bumble bees, lots of fresh solder and a f*cking great chew....!! Happy JJ LOL?!! :rofl

yrw8ueimm2qxmhxrxtyi.jpg


Long tenon looks ok to me (I'm learning..!)

nf3xbtm46alfhq4kfutg.jpg


Original PAFs?. Decal looks ok to my now expert eye (!), as does the 2 braid earth screen and the slight tool mark on the leg... Agree?

czzpxcl1ypcatiybc8wf.jpg


Ditto this one.... Fake M69s though?

twitl6ssvhshznunfzfu.jpg


Whadya think? Good value for £71,000 or approx US$89,000...?

Zapper, you're looking at a real 'burst from a real dealer with real reputation.
Please don't derail this thread, start a new and ask the seller / this forum the relevant questions.
That's my 2cents on this..
 

jimmi

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 8, 2012
Messages
2,077
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

It was this one I saw on Reverb in January for £71k (US$89k) that initially spiked my interest in buying one now while the market is (presumably like everything else) down the toilet.. It is still unsold today. It was only when I found out about Jay's one that I focused elsewhere. In fact, anyone have any views about this one as an entry-level Burst? Refin & reneck with some hooky parts ("all original or correct" apparently) but has original Lifton 5 latch case and looks nice! Serial number (apparently lol..!) is 0 1247. Shall I make an offer...?
Cheers!
Ian

https://reverb.com/item/30697676-gibson-les-paul-standard-1960-sunburst

f0ykpsch7yayhmkl3mdq.jpg


It has the maple slither under the binding (mind you so does The Nile)...

wtcvgdjywhd2oty5fgvr.jpg


Headstock looks worse than The Nile though..!!

wkisqofpixhlphnqceay.jpg


ons4wuuimuoxavkh9wvw.jpg


Bumble bees, lots of fresh solder and a f*cking great chew....!! Happy JJ LOL?!! :rofl

yrw8ueimm2qxmhxrxtyi.jpg


Long tenon looks ok to me (I'm learning..!)

nf3xbtm46alfhq4kfutg.jpg


Original PAFs?. Decal looks ok to my now expert eye (!), as does the 2 braid earth screen and the slight tool mark on the leg... Agree?

czzpxcl1ypcatiybc8wf.jpg


Ditto this one.... Fake M69s though?

twitl6ssvhshznunfzfu.jpg


Whadya think? Good value for £71,000 or approx US$89,000...?


Factory Grovers?
 

marshall1987

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,278
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

As others have commented ......I would not put my hard earned money into a substantially modified '50s Les Paul that has any of the following issues:

(1) re-necked; (2) re-topped; (3) completely refinished w/ missing serial number; (4) has a damaged, hacked up body; (5) shoddy amateur neck/headstock repairs, no serial number; (6) warped neck; (7) fingerboard work such as planed, leveled
 
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