How much do repro tuners affect value of a 1956 Les Paul Special?

irishbog · Dec 20, 2020

Hi all - first off this isn't about playability or which are the "better tuners" - I just received a guitar that was sold as having original tuners and they aren't - no brass posts, DELUXE instead of single line Kluson Deluxe and no PATENT stamp underneath etc etc. I'm more than annoyed because I found out after I posted it for sale as all original which is a bit embarrassing and undermines me as a seller. But I thought I could trust the store....

Not sure what to do now..... it's a well known Nashville store and I'm hoping they'll do the right thing..... but what would that mean.... I'm guessing they don't have a set sitting in a drawer somewhere they can send me. Any advice appreciated.
(The tuners on it work perfectly so there's no problem and I know that any vintage ones might not be as good but I didn't pay $10K for a non-original guitar)

fernieite · Dec 20, 2020

Personally, I'd be happy if the dealer refunded $250 US. You should be able to find a nice period correct 3 on a plate Kluson set + bushings and screws for that..

I am surprised that they thought this set was original. (I can't see a large version of these pictures, but they look way too new)

Unfortunately, now I would also be wondering if there are any other repro parts on the guitar? :hmm

garywright · Dec 20, 2020

irishbog · Dec 23, 2020

fernieite said:
Personally, I'd be happy if the dealer refunded $250 US. You should be able to find a nice period correct 3 on a plate Kluson set + bushings and screws for that..

I am surprised that they thought this set was original. (I can't see a large version of these pictures, but they look way too new)

Unfortunately, now I would also be wondering if there are any other repro parts on the guitar? :hmm

Well apparently not only didn't they know Eliot Michael and the guys at Rumble Seat Music in Nashville don't care either. Be careful buying from these cowboys.....

https://youtu.be/Lu-VyCBlCW0

sws1 · Dec 23, 2020

irishbog said:
Well apparently not only didn't they know Eliot Michael and the guys at Rumble Seat Music in Nashville don't care either. Be careful buying from these cowboys.....

https://youtu.be/Lu-VyCBlCW0

I didn't make it past the part in the vid where you said you only got the guitar a month ago, when you actually posted a video of your vintage collection (including this guitar) back in October.

MikeSlub · Dec 23, 2020

While it is unfortunate that repro tuners were not disclosed, letting them know about your concern a month later (when you decide to flip the guitar) seems like a long time before examining the guitar and raising your concern IMHO. It is buyer beware in the vintage guitar world, and examining a guitar immediately upon receipt so that you can follow up within the dealer's return policy timeframe (usually 48 hours) is the norm.

You posted this complaint all over the Internet and twice here. :hank

FirstFlight · Dec 23, 2020

I'd like to see the original ad from the "well known Nashville store" stating the condition as "all original"

Joe Desperado · Dec 26, 2020

On another forum, it came to light the purchase was in July almost 5 months ago. The dealer had an inspection period that has come and gone months ago.

Worse is recording a conversation without the other person’s knowledge and then posting it all over the internet....with misinformation on being given by the OP during that call.

irishbog · Dec 27, 2020

Guitar was confirmed as all original in the email - you can see it in the video.

Yes the guitar arrived in Oct ... not Nov ... not sure how misrepresenting goods has a one month statute of limitations.... one month bad....two months good.

why do we allow Vintage Guitar Dealers to write their own rules about trading standards and laws.... if they want to act like some guy off of Craigs List then stop pretending.
A 24 Grace Period is meant for things like "I didn't like neck" or "This guitar reeks of cigarette smoke" - Yes contact immediately if a wear-and-tear part like a pickup switch or tuning peg is broken - you could have caused that yourself - but they misrepresented the product in direct reply to an email asking about it. Why do you allow this kind of behavior and then turn around and act like you're to blame when you've been conned......

Weird

fatneck · Dec 30, 2020

One of the many reasons for inspection periods (of 24 to 48 hours) is because in the case of consignments, the owner needs to be paid. The store isn't responsible for the guitar after it has past the inspection period and the seller has been paid. Not five days after the inspection period and certainly not five months after that as in this case.

gmann · Dec 30, 2020

The buyer shouldn't have waited so long but the seller knew and should have disclosed this.

sws1 · Dec 30, 2020

fatneck said:
One of the many reasons for inspection periods (of 24 to 48 hours) is because in the case of consignments, the owner needs to be paid. The store isn't responsible for the guitar after it has past the inspection period and the seller has been paid. Not five days after the inspection period and certainly not five months after that as in this case.

Not making any comment on this situation, as I don't know the facts, and I'm not sure any of the published info can be trusted. BUT...

The statute of limitations on fraud can be as long as 2 years in some states, with the penalties being as much as 3x the damage plus legal fees. So "a few day inspection period" is not cut and dry. Might even be worse in some states.

Again, I'm only commenting on your statement...not this particularly situation.

JIMI55LP · Dec 31, 2020

I agree with "One of the many reasons for inspection periods (of 24 to 48 hours) is because in the case of consignments, the owner needs to be paid." but folks trust the large well know vintage dealers for the knowledge they claim to have and the dealer did verify the guitar was having the correct original hardware in writing. I'm glad the buyer did post this so as to expose who these guys are after the sale! I also agree recording the call without telling them it's being recorded is sensitive for many reasons , but I'm happy that he did because I heard EXACTLY WHAT A DEAL WITH THIS VINTAGE GUITAR "DEALER" is like and I don't think most would have believed the claim if they didn't hear it for thenselves??? The dealer should have referred to their photos in the listing to verify how wrong they were in their "VERIFICATION", Their site ALLWAYS has perfect photos! I believe most of the folks I know locally wouldn't be able to verify authenticity/originality of a 1956 Les Paul Special and I've always felt professional vintage instrument dealers were a GOOD thing for that knowledge of vintage instruments but this plays out like someone swapping PAFs for patent#s to pray on the sellers TRUST in their company being "experts" ??? I've read hear mant mant times how "foolish" it is not to hire a traveling expert to verify a Burst ans this is not a small dealer it our vintage world! This could have and should have gone better on both sides of this deal! IMHO

PhilLondon · Jan 2, 2021

Personally I don’t think it matters if it’s one day, one week or one year if they provided you with pictures, didn’t disclose it/realise it and the item is the same as the one in the pictures.

It’s their fault, you haven’t tampered with it and they should, if only for their reputation send you a set of period correct, authentic tuners or an appropriate refund.

Buyer beware relates to private sales. There are laws and regulations relating to places of businesses so we don’t get screwed over, so people’s opinion on the matter is irrelevant as it’s the legality of selling something that isn’t as described and then not complying with the legislation around that which matter. If you feel that hasn’t been complied with you should explain that you are willing to take legal action and will report them to their local trading standards body.

marshall1987 · Jan 3, 2021

Whether the story is about a guitar purchase that took place one month ago, or five months ago, or a consignment piece, or the dealer's 24-48 hour inspection period...... a dealer's hard-earned reputation can be soured overnight if/when an unhappy customer posts a negative review about their purchase experience on social media. Potentially, hundreds or even thousands of future guitar buyers could be swayed by such negative reviews and decide to take their business elsewhere.

So in the long run, is it really a wise business decision to play "hardball" with an unhappy customer? Especially if the dealer misrepresented the guitar from the outset? Calls to mind the age-old axiom...."penny wise, but pound foolish." :dang

JIMI55LP · Jan 3, 2021

I don't believe the buyer is a fault in any world and they put their hard earned faith into a heavily publisized site claiming to be expert in verifications of the items they are selling, even if it is a consignment in their hands! This post should open all eyes to how dealing with this seller IS! I would never have believed this about this seller if I hadn't read it here. I'm very glad that this buyer took the time and efforts to expose these folks "where they live". Make note of this dealer, "BUYER BEWARE"!

gmann · Jan 3, 2021

So who is the seller?

Wally · Jan 4, 2021

http://www.guitarhq.com/kluson.html

As noted, caveat emptor...buyer beware. Being informed when dealing in any market is advisable.
And, immediate inspection and notification of any questions is a reasonable expectation.
Fwiw, the shop may have been unaware of the non-originality of those those tuners IF there was an employee who traded out some new
Machines for the more valuable originals. I’ll take a look to see if by some small chance I have tuners that would make your guitar complete.
A year ago Inwould have had such a thing, but I sold a box of vintage Klusons that I had in a drawer for years.
In the video you mentioned to Keith at Rumble Seat that you were looking at a set that was at $45. If you can find such machines for that, you would be fortunate, imho. Good luck with it.

Wally · Jan 4, 2021

...duplicate removed

marshall1987 · Jan 4, 2021

Wally said:
http://www.guitarhq.com/kluson.html

As noted, caveat emptor...buyer beware. Being informed when dealing in any market is advisable.
And, immediate inspection and notification of any questions is a reasonable expectation.
Fwiw, the shop may have been unaware of the non-originality of those those tuners IF there was an employee who traded out some new Machines for the more valuable originals.

Wally all good stuff for sure. But replaced parts and undisclosed guitar repairs are not the same thing. Let me provide an example that illustrates how difficult it can be to detect undisclosed repairs on a vintage Gibson electric guitar.

A few years back I bought an early Norlin-era Les Paul Deluxe from a vintage guitar dealer in Nashville, TN. Although I inquired about the guitar's originality, the dealer failed to disclose the following: (1) very poor re-fret; and, (2) leveling and planing of the IRW fingerboard above the 14th fret.

Re-fretting an old guitar, at least for me, is something I can accept. So a month later, and well after the 24-48 hour approval period, I took it to a professional repairman in Baltimore I frequently use. It was only then that I learned the fingerboard had been leveled and planed previously. :hmm

I went over that guitar thoroughly when it arrived and it never occurred to me the fingerboard had been leveled and planed. It's not something the average guitar player can detect if you aren't told in advance. Boy was I pissed. IMO a planed & leveled fingerboard on a vintage Les Paul Deluxe devalues it considerably.

So it's not enough to say the guitar buyer should know what to look for in every instance. There are some things only an experienced guitar repairman can identity. :dang

How much do repro tuners affect value of a 1956 Les Paul Special?

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