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1957 Gibson Les Paul Goldtop ? serial 7-2595 ? Real or Fake ?

lespauls

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Jul 21, 2021
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29
@lespauls:
You seam rather good informed about vintage gear. So this is definitely not the first time, you pass by the LPF. Very concrete, but also incorrect statements about routings and cavities. Actually you even don't own the guitar, as you confirm. And here you make a cloak and dagger appearance under a name which never posted for another thread.

And then actually you are not only asking about the guitar, but also risk to damage it. You don't ask about different routings or did extensive searches, you say "The cavities though...I was like wtf once I saw this" or "to the best of my knowledge that cavity route has not been made by Gibson in the 50s" and that "your concern was to show some evidence to the seller". You already had your opinion, you want confirmation. For a guitar somebody else owns? Not one of the pictures you posted is taken by you.

Your questions are too specific for a musician, and not specific enough for a collector. Any serious collector, who would have had real interest in that guitar would have taken it to a proper inspection without risking to permanently damage it, unless not 1000% sure. Members here would have helped, to find the right guy close to you.

But like always, posts of other members here where helpful.
Hello, yes, now the guitar has been sold, but meanwhile I got answer from some of the major Gibson experts and from Gibson's and they confirmed Tom Murphy never even saw this guitar, and their in-house expert confirmed the cavities are wrong. Let me clarify what happened here and why I came on the forum to find some advice.

I was offered this guitar by Justin Harrison who sent all those pics to me and other interested parties. Since it seemed too good to be true I asked to a few friends who own real ones from 1957 to compare, and they were very concerned about it. They pointed out the oddities on this one, and suggested to contact Gibson and some well known experts as well.

I don't really understand your position here which seems suspicious and sort of "against" me, I only had the hope that somebody could maybe tell if this thing "could be" the real thing. Being a open-minded guy, I truly hoped this could be my dream guitar, and of course that it could be confirmed as the real thing, even with some story on it, hey, sometimes oddities can be part of the history of the guitar. The price was really good, "IF" the instrument was legit and the story true. I'm no Gibson expert to the extent to be sure about this one, that's why I asked for advice on here.

I think place like this forum should help people to share opinions, knowledge, to serve the entire community. If this guitar is real, good to know since apparently it would be a "unique bird", so where is the problem in trying to ask for advice, without mentioning the seller's name at first?

I only wanted to receive a honest opinion on the guitar, not on the seller's reputation. Meanwhile I've been told by Justin that he sold the guitar in Italy and the shop advertised it as per real. But now that Gibson itself, with some of their most knowledgeable people confirmed that the issues here are way too much to even claim that this is the real thing, I don't see how the current owner or seller will be able to claim otherwise. I feel grateful for the people of the forum who took their time to give their advice, and happy of my decision not to buy this guitar.
 
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lespauls

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Jul 21, 2021
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29
Hi Sir, a friend of mine told me that pictures of my guitar were on this forum, so here I am.
I'm the owner of this gold top with black parts that somebody posted asking if it's a fake.
I don't know how happened, but my guitar IS NOT FOR SALE.
It's in my house..so if someone offered this to you maybe he is lying, so please don't give him any money. Be careful my friend!
I know that It was oversprayed white at some point and then removed and back to the original paint.
It's one of the best guitar I ever played and the only one close is a 59 burst belonging to a friend of mine.
If it is a fake, please make another one like this and I will buy it right away..
Thanks for your attention and good luck!
Last think: could you remove the pictures of my guitars from this post? I appreciate a lot, thank you!
Hello, I've been offered this guitar by Justin Harrison, likely before you got it. Sadly the in-house experts at Gibsons and the major Gibson Experts answered to my requests (which were sent to them before searching for some advice on here), and all of them confirmed this guitar is not what it seems. Infact all the "proof" shown to you to confirm it's legitimacy is some video tape in awful resolution from the late 80s ? Well, if for you that is enough to prove it's authenticity fine, I wouldn't be that naive though, since by mid 80s fakes were already around, maybe not 100% exact but surely very well made.

For what it's worth, maybe this one it's not technically a "fake", most likely a conversion. But the whole story that has been told by the seller was sort of a "tale", and you don't need tales to sell real guitars with real history. It was offered to me claiming that it was original with the serial no. restamped by Tom Murphy himself (which turned out to be a Lie, as confirmed by Gibson) ; It was really an important topic to me, if mr. Murphy really worked on this guitar or not, but Justin had no proof of that, so I tried to get in touch with Gibson but it took a while to receive an answer.

Also the cavity routes are one of the main concerns, since they are all rounded and with the hole for the wires placed in a position where no other 50s les paul standard would be (top left corner); So I don't see why I should turn down the pictures which were sent to me by the seller while the guitar was still on the market. I legitimately posted on here hoping that somebody would have been able to confirm this one was part of a small batch or something, since the price was "too good to be true".

I still do hope for you, that somebody will present at least another Goldtop 1957 with all the "oddities" of this one: wrong placement of the logo, "unique" cavity and wire hole, all mahogany body, but so far nobody was able to claim this could be real.

There is very little chance at this point, that your instrument is the real deal, and I think you should just return it to the seller, and btw, good luck with the return in Denmark Street!
 
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lespauls

New member
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Jul 21, 2021
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29
Justin Here-we-go-again Harrison. 😖
Figures. Now I get it why OP was reluctant to reveal the seller's name in the first place..
thank you so very much, it wasn't because i wanted to be "slimy" just because I knew that once I would have named him, I would have had no more answers reg. the guitar. I think that the combo here, seller, fake back history and fake restoration history, plus the fact that Gibson's in house historians and major Experts confirmed this is not a legit 50s les paul, pretty much sums it up.

Still I'm amazed how some people will just trust the seller's word and a late 80s youtube video. That part scares me a bit, even if I respect other people choices.

Here I just wanted to focus on a possibly unique guitar, nothing else.

thank you for your comment.
 

lespauls

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Jul 21, 2021
Messages
29
The old line goes if you hear hoofbeats, think horses not zebras.
No vintage instrument retailer ever thinks in terms of being charitable with their inventory. If there's a low price there's a reason.
That is why I passed on this one. it was "too good to be true", and you're right, sometimes the old lines are there for a reason!
 

Reno_1ted

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Joined
Sep 21, 2014
Messages
665
Threads like this make popping back to the forum worthwhile. Not had one with these twists and turns for a while!

I get why the OP would want to focus on the guitar not the seller, but in reality the two are almost as important as each other. I'd always do just as much research on a seller as I would on a guitar and even if the guitar seemed to check out, if the seller didn't, I'd pass. And it doesn't take much of a Google to find Justin. Good choice in passing up OP, and I hope if the Italian guy is legit he doesn't feel too burned, because I doubt he'll get his money back.
 

CptZar

Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2016
Messages
74
Now I wonder, how did the OP ever proof his claim?

Actually this guitar had been presented to Gibson already.

This is what came back:
On 12. Oct 2020, at 10:36, Service Europe <Service.Europe@gibson.com> wrote:
Hi,

The pot code would refer to a Centralab pot from week 38 in 1957 indeed.

All mahogany bodied Les Paul Standards with humbucking pickups were only made mid-1957
Please see below the specs from the early days of the Les Paul Standard taken from the Gruhns Guide to Vintage Guitars
./.
Introduced as Les Paul Model: mid 1952
Serial number on back of peghead: late 1953
./.
Tune-o-matic bridge: mid to late 1955
Humbucking pickups, a few with all mahogany body: mid 1957
Renamed Les Paul Standard: 2 piece bookmatched maple top, cherry sunburst finish: mid 1958 etc.

So I really would like to know what Gibson said this time?
All mahogany GTs were not build in 1957 ?
The routing is not correct for an all mahogany 57 LP like Custom etc ?
There were never cavities in 57s with only curved side walls? What about 1957 LP Specials? They all have curved cavities.
The logo is placed wrong? Please see 7 8791 and 7 3971 from burst serial.com.
Was it renecked, a P90 conversion, did they measure the thickness, was it refinished, in general what is it they found by the pics the OP provided?
Has the OP ever seen the guitar?

Why doesn't the OP go ahead and post some facts? I have nothing to get out of this. But this forum is only as good as it wants to be, if it is not enough to point fingers here, without any proof.

BTW the original SN is scratched off, not put back there after removing an overspray. A serial number always is under a clear lacquer coat, which however was never removed here. Easy to see that. Did the OP see that, too? So what is the big lye her? That there is no proof that Tom Murphy printed a fake serial number in 1995 on guitar which had no serial number, because it was scratched off, most probably by somebody who didn't own it and that Gibson doesn't know about that? What would a phantasy SN printed by Tom Murphy change? Or even a story? They don't make fake gear legit. Details and facts make.

Here are some more facts. The image with the white sprayed GT is from one of the "80s videos". Let's call the player Bruce. Clearly visible, the hole in the top where the pickguard should be. And of course... pup covers are not original. But the control cavity covers have roller marks.

On top..even many members here don't know that all mahogany exist. Also not that the routing of an mahogany LP is different to a marple cap. Now what idiot would fake an all mahogany LP in the 70/80s at that level, only to get told by everybody, that those did not exist?

Bruce Conte played one https://www.discogs.com/Bruce-Conte-Right-From-My-Heart/release/10820455/image/SW1hZ2U6MzAyMjA4Mzk=



Pots:
134738
BA211-1053
500K-C2

Blacklight
1956 GT
1957 GT all mahogany
1957 Custom

Bruce.jpgTop.jpgpot.jpg
 

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S. Weiger

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Messages
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lespauls wrote in post# 63:

"For what it's worth, maybe this one it's not technically a "fake", most likely a conversion"
 
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S. Weiger

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Messages
1,744
Anybody with a 1957 LP Special all mahogany control cavity shot?
 

CptZar

Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2016
Messages
74
Thank you. And I found this. Posted by Danelectro.


Only missing the chew marks now. But those are not present on a Special. They are caused by the carved top of a Les Paul Standard.

The discussed cavity for reference.
 

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S. Weiger

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Thank you. And I found this. Posted by Danelectro.


Only missing the chew marks now. But those are not present on a Special. They are caused by the carved top of a Les Paul Standard.

The discussed cavity for reference.
Let me see:
Gibson already did the "rounded cavity walls" on the slab mahogany LP special body, so maybe they also did it on the '57 Standard in this thread? Is that what you are suggesting?
 

CptZar

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Messages
74
The OP stated, that there are no cavities like the one on this very GT.

However:
1. The cable channel in the control cavity is correct for an all Mahgony LP (here is another one)
2. Rounded cornes have been seen in LPs cavities (according to others who posted pics). Also that is standard on LP Specials.
3. Now the LP Standard cavity I posted above does not only have rounded corners, it also has the cable channel drilled straight through the massive piece of mahogany from the jack plate to the pickups. Like the guitar questioned. What it doesn't have is chew marks. Because they don't exist on flat top LP. They are caused by the holes for the controls on a carved top.

It was said, that these would not exist, and therefore, it was a fake. And that is just not true. Here is proof. I have no idea what Gibson did on this very day. But I am 100% convinced, that this is a 1957 LP GT all mahogany. And to put things in perspective. All I post here was found out by me. The names and places in the 70s Chicago, the pink/white powder which was in the cavities and even on the solder joints. The conclusion why it was there, that is was residues from an overspray and then find the old photos, videos of the owner playing that badly oversprayed GT as proof. in 1995 the guitar was with Tom Murphy and later photos show it as a Gold Top again. And not refinished; that is the important fact. The pictures proofed the gold was intact under the color and the color was played partly away by the time. And why not? The owner belonged to the Chicago music scene, Tom Murphy had his shop there. Anything special about that? But it was also with other Luthiers. Denny Rauen lists the owner among other celebrities as customer. Maybe he did the color removal. Who cares, does it change anything? Where is the lye? On the pics I posted form the owners tone studio in Chicago, you can see it later with two very well known dumble amps, well discussed in groups, also photographed with the guitar. I spent a considerable amount of time on that. And the more I searched, the more things fell into place. There is just no smoking gun here. It is an honest, well played guitar with a huge hole in the top, which the owner, who had its since 72, scratched in with picks and nails. This also makes sense, as that would have been harder on a marple cap. And yes probably somebody had stolen it in the 60s, scratched of the SN and sold it at Chicago Guitar Gallery where Paul Stapels again sold it to the previous owner. Those are all real places and names. I don't make them up. Give me another LP where you have such a lot of infos?

This also can't be a conversion. If it was a 60s GT or Custom, it had a marple cap. Also it's a dark back. A 50s conversion would have had P90s. The serial number was scratched off and that can be seen. Also I measured it, thinkness of body. And that measures exactly like my 56GT. If it was refinished, it would not. I posted a Black light pic together with 2 other 1957 LPs. There is nothing suspicious.

I am not a dealer. I am here for fun. I hope everybody can say that.
 

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S. Weiger

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Messages
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The OP stated, that there are no cavities like the one on this very GT.

However:
1. The cable channel in the control cavity is correct for an all Mahgony LP (here is another one)
2. Rounded cornes have been seen in LPs cavities (according to others who posted pics). Also that is standard on LP Specials.
3. Now the LP Standard cavity I posted above does not only have rounded corners, it also has the cable channel drilled straight through the massive piece of mahogany from the jack plate to the pickups. Like the guitar questioned. What it doesn't have is chew marks. Because they don't exist on flat top LP. They are caused by the holes for the controls on a carved top.

It was said, that these would not exist, and therefore, it was a fake. And that is just not true. Here is proof. I have no idea what Gibson did on this very day. But I am 100% convinced, that this is a 1957 LP GT all mahogany. And to put things in perspective. All I post here was found out by me. The names and places in the 70s Chicago, the pink/white powder which was in the cavities and even on the solder joints. The conclusion why it was there, that is was residues from an overspray and then find the old photos, videos of the owner playing that badly oversprayed GT as proof. in 1995 the guitar was with Tom Murphy and later photos show it as a Gold Top again. And not refinished; that is the important fact. The pictures proofed the gold was intact under the color and the color was played partly away by the time. And why not? The owner belonged to the Chicago music scene, Tom Murphy had his shop there. Anything special about that? But it was also with other Luthiers. Denny Rauen lists the owner among other celebrities as customer. Maybe he did the color removal. Who cares, does it change anything? Where is the lye? On the pics I posted form the owners tone studio in Chicago, you can see it later with two very well known dumble amps, well discussed in groups, also photographed with the guitar. I spent a considerable amount of time on that. And the more I searched, the more things fell into place. There is just no smoking gun here. It is an honest, well played guitar with a huge hole in the top, which the owner, who had its since 72, scratched in with picks and nails. This also makes sense, as that would have been harder on a marple cap. And yes probably somebody had stolen it in the 60s, scratched of the SN and sold it at Chicago Guitar Gallery where Paul Stapels again sold it to the previous owner. Those are all real places and names. I don't make them up. Give me another LP where you have such a lot of infos?

This also can't be a conversion. If it was a 60s GT or Custom, it had a marple cap. Also it's a dark back. A 50s conversion would have had P90s. The serial number was scratched off and that can be seen. Also I measured it, thinkness of body. And that measures exactly like my 56GT. If it was refinished, it would not. I posted a Black light pic together with 2 other 1957 LPs. There is nothing suspicious.

I am not a dealer. I am here for fun. I hope everybody can say that.
Mayhap Guitar is legit.

But it will forever be a hard sale with a long tale, should the owner ever decide to pass it on. And the Justin Harrison connection does not exactly make the guitar's story better..

Why did you let it go, if you are convinced the guitar's a real '57 and not a conversion of some undefinable kind ?
 
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CptZar

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Jul 30, 2016
Messages
74
Because I wanted a guitar with less issues and I can afford that. I didn't like the hole in the top, missing serial number, black parts etc. There is other LPs out there which do it better for me. And as much as I want, I can't afford to have them all...

BTW, just heard there is all mahogany GTs in the Gold Top Believer book. Don't have the book yet...
 

sws1

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Dec 4, 2001
Messages
2,846
Thank you. And I found this. Posted by Danelectro.


Only missing the chew marks now. But those are not present on a Special. They are caused by the carved top of a Les Paul Standard.

The discussed cavity for reference.

I don't understand why there would be a chew mark on the guitar in question, if there isn't any visible routing on the bottom of the cavity for the pots. And it certainly looks like that chew mark was added after the staining was done. IMO
 

S. Weiger

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Messages
1,744
I don't understand why there would be a chew mark on the guitar in question, if there isn't any visible routing on the bottom of the cavity for the pots. And it certainly looks like that chew mark was added after the staining was done. IMO
I second that. And the chew doesn't look like it was made with a router forstner bit IMO. More like done with a file or rasp.
Legit bit chews I have seen are more rough, except for the "chew curve", which is rough on the guitar discussed here..
Could be the angle of the pic though.. :cool: hmm
 
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