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1957 Gibson Les Paul Goldtop ? serial 7-2595 ? Real or Fake ?

El Gringo

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Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
4,810
Shine a light a rat will come running out from under the guitar . Severe play grooves in top ? Severe fade around pick guard that was most likely not on the guitar most of its life having such deep scalloped wear ? Way to many stories I'm confused who's on first .

If guitar is a deal and you want a legitimate 57 pass !!!!

If the guitar is priced accordingly for a 57 pass !!

The posted Guitar is in limbo best to leave it there someday the chicken will taste like eagle AGAIN !!
Seems OP who is on here seeking guidance won't divulge the shop when I asked . OP claims that if the shop is named the instrument will not receive attention anymore ? Why seek out our wisdom and not mention the shop ? We could provide more help and clarity if we had more information and facts . Our Forum could be more helpful if we were given more details , as everyone around these parts knows where to shop for our favorite instruments . Also it is not easy to judge on images alone .
 

lespauls

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Jul 21, 2021
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Seems OP who is on here seeking guidance won't divulge the shop when I asked . OP claims that if the shop is named the instrument will not receive attention anymore ? Why seek out our wisdom and not mention the shop ? We could provide more help and clarity if we had more information and facts . Our Forum could be more helpful if we were given more details , as everyone around these parts knows where to shop for our favorite instruments . Also it is not easy to judge on images alone .
I respectfully disagree. If I mention the shop the discussion will not be on the guitar only, but personal opinions on the seller will modify the judgement onto the guitar. The theme here is the guitar, and I've already stated a ton of times that the main issue is the cavity configuration. So far nobody has either explained why that should be factory or IF that could be factory. Telling who the seller is wont' add up anything on topic.
 

El Gringo

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Apr 8, 2015
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4,810
I respectfully disagree. If I mention the shop the discussion will not be on the guitar only, but personal opinions on the seller will modify the judgement onto the guitar. The theme here is the guitar, and I've already stated a ton of times that the main issue is the cavity configuration. So far nobody has either explained why that should be factory or IF that could be factory. Telling who the seller is wont' add up anything on topic.
Okay , and I will respectfully disagree as the seller and there integrity in the eyes of the community matters when shelling out big bucks for a vintage instrument . Also it is very revealing that you will not name the shop and naturally that sends up the proverbial red flags as it should . Proceed with caution .
 

lespauls

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Jul 21, 2021
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Okay , and I will respectfully disagree as the seller and there integrity in the eyes of the community matters when shelling out big bucks for a vintage instrument . Also it is very revealing that you will not name the shop and naturally that sends up the proverbial red flags as it should . Proceed with caution .
But hey, if I mention the shop nobody will ever share what this guitar really is. The worst dealers can have the best guitar. If I tell you the name of this shop now, you'll tell me to stay away from it, I already know that answer. Here I want to know about the guitar. Once somebody will shed some light on this, I will tell to the community who the seller is. So far I've received zero useful answer regarding the cavity configuration. My question is, can this be a legit 1957 Goldtop, darkback, all mahogany body guitar? I've not seen any proof of any 57 GT with this cavity, but I've seen a handful only of these, so regardless of the seller, I'd like to know if anybody has ever seen anything like this.
 
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xyz123

Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2016
Messages
49
I may step in here. I also did own this guitar .

I had the chance to buy another guitar with less issues, as I could afford that. So I returned it. The serial number is not the original one. The original one was erased. This will always lead to discussions about its legitimacy. And there will always be a grey zone, where only a few will have sufficient knowledge, e.g. the routing for an all Mahogany GT.

I did extensive researches on it.

When I bought it, I was told it belonged to a Chicago Guitarist, who played with Betsy and the Boneshakers, and toured with some big names.
It was bought by him 1972 in Chicago from Paul Staples. That could have been made up, until, I read an interview with Jim Peterik from Survivor, who said about a 1968 guitar he bought: „Yes, it was the Les Paul Goldtop Standard that I got from Guitar Gallery in Chicago. There was a sort of “rebel” guy who worked there named Paul Staples“ So this made sense.

The guitar is very easily recognisable. It has a huge hole under the pickguard, as it was always played without the pickguard so picks and fingers cut deep into the top. Also when I received the guitar, it had traces of a pink/white powder in the cavities and even the solder joints had light pink color. And it was played without pup covers, thats why the pups look battered. The pickguard is probably from a sixties, as it is a little shorter.

Look for

williams fest 1987 mark hannon walkin' the dog

in youtube

There is more videos from 1990, as the banner in the back confirms.

Check Betsy & the BoneShakers popsdrum

Seeing the videos I knew where the white powder came from. It had been over-sprayed with white color.

And there is more pictures. Here is one from 1994 with its owner and you can see how the white overspray is vanishing. Under there you see the Goldtop and on the top under the elbow, the small strip of mahogany, which is visible on the pics the OP posted here. Also you see that the owner mostly played with long shirts. That why the cuff button left a prominent mark at that very position. Also you see the hole under the right thumb.
Screenshot 2021-07-23 at 08.22.14.jpg

The previous owner said he gave it to Tom Murphy in 1995. I assume (!) it was then, that the white overspray had been removed. It then also received a new serial number. I can’t confirm if this is all true, but the stamp font is correct, maybe a little smaller. You would have to ask Tom Murphy, who I didn’t get hold off. Almost impossible. But there is also other luthiers, who list the owner as their client. It has not been played on stage by the owner since, and resurfaces aside two Dumble of which one is #60, which belonged to Bonnie Raiit, in 2010 in the owners Tone Studio. Recognisable again by the hole under the pickguard.
Screenshot 2020-09-16 at 14.45.15.jpg

The guitar has been played for 60 years, every day. It has scars which I personally believe, are almost impossible to fake.

I assume the OP has already these informations. I do agree that the all round edges in the control cavity are rarely seen. If it would be a fake, the question comes up, who would fake a 57 all Mahogany GT in the 70/80s, only to overspray it white? Now that is only my personal logic, other might disagree. But IMHO this is not a 60s LP. And it needs a fair chance, too. So here is what I know and I traced it back until 1987...

Of course there is people who know so much more than me. Please chime in.

Any owner of a vintage guitar has to feel good about it. If there is always some kind suspicion, it will never be a happy relationship

In the end, only showing it to an expert, will give a proper result.
 
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fakejake

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Sep 3, 2010
Messages
1,257
Easily my favourite thread at the moment :)
Guys, please continue! :cool:
 

neuroy

Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Messages
225
A late 60´s guitar should be easy to determine by the headstock angle ?

Just an observation, or an illusion : isn´t the bridge PU cavity less deep than the neck PU cave ?
 

sws1

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Joined
Dec 4, 2001
Messages
2,695
There is an old thread about burst control cavities. Image on lower left. Maybe Danelectro knows more...

View attachment 14780


That cavity is from one of the bursts in the 9-04xx range where they did not have the secondary route done by machine, but rather were done manually with a chisel. You can see the hand chiseling under the pots. All the ones with that are in the same consecutive s/n range.

Here's another:
9_0423-16-me.jpg


And another right next to it.
9_0424-07.jpg
 

sweiger

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Messages
1,115
A late 60´s guitar should be easy to determine by the headstock angle ?
It would, but a 3 degree difference is often hard to see in a photo unless you place both variants next to each other. The TRC placement is 50's though, if the placement is original.
Control cavity certainly looks weird, but given it's an odd all mahogany example, who knows?

It would be nice to see the truss rod cavity close up in a quality pic.
Guitar needs in-hand inspection IMO.
 

xyz123

Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2016
Messages
49
@lespauls:
You seam rather good informed about vintage gear. So this is definitely not the first time, you pass by the LPF. Very concrete, but also incorrect statements about routings and cavities. Actually you even don't own the guitar, as you confirm. And here you make a cloak and dagger appearance under a name which never posted for another thread.

And then actually you are not only asking about the guitar, but also risk to damage it. You don't ask about different routings or did extensive searches, you say "The cavities though...I was like wtf once I saw this" or "to the best of my knowledge that cavity route has not been made by Gibson in the 50s" and that "your concern was to show some evidence to the seller". You already had your opinion, you want confirmation. For a guitar somebody else owns? Not one of the pictures you posted is taken by you.

Your questions are too specific for a musician, and not specific enough for a collector. Any serious collector, who would have had real interest in that guitar would have taken it to a proper inspection without risking to permanently damage it, unless not 1000% sure. Members here would have helped, to find the right guy close to you.

But like always, posts of other members here where helpful.
 
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gmann

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Joined
May 26, 2003
Messages
5,896
Contact Murphy, surely he would remember working on this one.
 

MarkKnopflerIsGod

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Joined
Jul 28, 2021
Messages
2
Hello, I've been offered this guitar, claimed to be a real 1957 goldtop, apparently painted white all over at some point and then restored by Tom Murphy, who, according to the story, have removed the white color from the guitar, saving the original finish. So far I was like, so cool!

Then it turns out there is no proof that mr. Murphy has ever worked on this one, and when the detailed pics show up, control cavity looks wrong to me, as does the headstock logo placement. Hope somebody can notice something else, or chime in to explain if the oddities I see are maybe factory or not.

It has a mahogany top. And seller claims Tom Murphy has "restamped" the serial number.

The guitar sounds amazing and I'd love to get it, just not sure it's legit. Thanks in advance for the help.
Hi Sir, a friend of mine told me that pictures of my guitar were on this forum, so here I am.
I'm the owner of this gold top with black parts that somebody posted asking if it's a fake.
I don't know how happened, but my guitar IS NOT FOR SALE.
It's in my house..so if someone offered this to you maybe he is lying, so please don't give him any money. Be careful my friend!
I know that It was oversprayed white at some point and then removed and back to the original paint.
It's one of the best guitar I ever played and the only one close is a 59 burst belonging to a friend of mine.
If it is a fake, please make another one like this and I will buy it right away..
Thanks for your attention and good luck!
Last think: could you remove the pictures of my guitars from this post? I appreciate a lot, thank you!
 

catawompus

Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2020
Messages
28
Hi Sir, a friend of mine told me that pictures of my guitar were on this forum, so here I am.
I'm the owner of this gold top with black parts that somebody posted asking if it's a fake.
I don't know how happened, but my guitar IS NOT FOR SALE.
It's in my house..so if someone offered this to you maybe he is lying, so please don't give him any money. Be careful my friend!
I know that It was oversprayed white at some point and then removed and back to the original paint.
It's one of the best guitar I ever played and the only one close is a 59 burst belonging to a friend of mine.
If it is a fake, please make another one like this and I will buy it right away..
Thanks for your attention and good luck!
Last think: could you remove the pictures of my guitars from this post? I appreciate a lot, thank you!
Looks like it's troll time again. Your English is kind of questionable. Mine is too, but I have an excuse, I'm Swiss. Where are you from? One post? Maybe you could show us some other pics of "your" guitar? I don't think that will happen...
 

MarkKnopflerIsGod

New member
Joined
Jul 28, 2021
Messages
2
Dear friend, we live nearby, I'm from Italy and I am not a high school graduate in English but the message seemed clear enough: I'm the owner of this guitar and I confirm that my guitar is no longer for sale, so don't care about it and please remove pics of my guitar from your post. I enclose what you ask to legitimate myself, here's a pic of my guitar resting with a '59 Burst of a dear friend. You are welcome if you want to try the 57, but as I said before she is not for sale because I love her, I apologize if I got in your post. God bless you.
 

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xyz123

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Jul 30, 2016
Messages
49
Nice to know it found a good home. Congratulation for owning an instrument with tons of mojo.
 
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