335 50's wiring/out of phase...

[BrentT]

I am getting ready to replace the pickups in my Epi 335 "inspired by Gibson" with Unpotted Custombuckers, new pots, Emerson Bumblebee caps- I want to do the 50's wiring, I would like to have them out of phase but I don't really want to have to remove the covers to turn the magnet. I do have push/pull pots that are in the guitar now... Is it possible to have them TRULY out of phase any other way, other than the magnet turn? I have considered using the push/pull pot to have the option of in or out of phase, if that is even possible. Considering it will be two-conductor wire, what options do I have? I really do not want to have to melt the weld on the pickup covers, but I am afraid this is the only way to get the real sound I want... ANY SUGGESTIONS?

 

[charliechitlins]

The way to get the pickup covers off is to cut the solder with a dremel and cutoff wheel.
Fast, easy and easy to flow the solder back together and regain original appearance if you want to put the covers back on.
I suppose you're looking for that slightly nasal Peter Green sound in the middle position.
I'm not an expert in this stuff, but I think reversing magnets doesn't literally put the pickups out of phase; it's just a term we use to describe that flipped magnet sound, or the sound of 2 pickups in close physical proximity (I can get it on my guitars with 3 P90s...and Stratocasters, of course).
I think If you actually wire your pickups out of phase, you lose a lot of output and the guitar sounds like crap in the middle position.
I have done this by mistake.

 

[Roe]

I'm not an expert in this stuff, but I think reversing magnets doesn't literally put the pickups out of phase; it's just a term we use to describe that flipped magnet sound, or the sound of 2 pickups in close physical proximity

reversing one magnet will result in pickups that are magnetically out of phase yes, which is key to the Greeny sound

 

[poor man's burst]

I'm not an expert in this stuff, but I think reversing magnets doesn't literally put the pickups out of phase;

Flipping the magnet in one pickup or reversing the wires gives exactly the same result: it inverts the phase of one pickup relative to the other one. The signal in one pickup substracts to the signal from the other pickup instead of adding to when both pickups are connected.

 

[charliechitlins]

...substracts to the signal from the other pickup...

Please explain what this means.

 

[charliechitlins]

So...the flipped magnet "Greenie" mod results in a drastically reduced output in the middle position?
The time I wired a pickup wrong (out of phase) resulted in very low output...like...unusable.

 

[poor man's burst]

Please explain what this means.

The signal coming from a pickup has a polarity or a phase (a direction if you will): it can be first positive and then negative, or first negative and then positive, depending on how the pickup is built (magnet polarity and coil winding direction, clockwise or conterclockwise, coil wiring). If two pickups installed on a guitar are built the same, the signal coming from them will have the same polarity and will add if combined together. If one element in one of the two pickups is inverted relatively to the other pickup, the polarity (direction) of signal will be inverted or out of phase. The signal that is positive from one pickup will be negative from the other one, canceling each other. This only happens with what is identical in both signals (basically the fundamental of the notes played). The more the signals coming from both pickups are alike (volume or tone), the more it is canceled. As the sound (or signal) coming from 2 pickups in a guitar (bridge and neck pickups) are different, this the difference that will remain.

 

[Roe]

So...the flipped magnet "Greenie" mod results in a drastically reduced output in the middle position?
The time I wired a pickup wrong (out of phase) resulted in very low output...like...unusable.

Greeny pretty much disproved this by putting it to good use. By adjusting the volume controls you can adjust how much of the out of phase effect you get

 

[darkwave]

The pickups are far enough apart that the waveform each creates is a bit different. There’s cancellation, but it is not prefect enough to kill all output.

My 2008 traditional has an out of phase pick up by my doing. When you roll down the neck pick up to about eight most of the out-of-phase effect is eliminated, which is good because my standard middle setting approach was to roll the neck pick up down to about eight. So I have an interesting effect I can roll into whenever I need it.

- Douglas C.

 

[garywright]

darkwave’s post is exactly what happened to my late 70s Hamer Sunburst when rolling down one of the volumes to around 8

 

[charliechitlins]

The signal coming from a pickup has a polarity or a phase (a direction if you will): it can be first positive and then negative, or first negative and then positive, depending on how the pickup is built (magnet polarity and coil winding direction, clockwise or conterclockwise, coil wiring). If two pickups installed on a guitar are built the same, the signal coming from them will have the same polarity and will add if combined together. If one element in one of the two pickups is inverted relatively to the other pickup, the polarity (direction) of signal will be inverted or out of phase. The signal that is positive from one pickup will be negative from the other one, canceling each other. This only happens with what is identical in both signals (basically the fundamental of the notes played). The more the signals coming from both pickups are alike (volume or tone), the more it is canceled. As the sound (or signal) coming from 2 pickups in a guitar (bridge and neck pickups) are different, this the difference that will remain.

Got it.
Thanks.
I think "substracts to the signal" is just a couple of typos that sounded good enough to make me think I was missing something

 

[Happy Tree]

In the Brian May guitar you can change the direction of phase for each of the 3 pickups. The output doesn't so much get quieter as get more trebley. To be honest, there are no bad sound options; they're all just different—these pickups are wired in series rather than parallel. Maybe that helps with the output issue. All 3 pickups on with the middle one out of phase is the most radical sound. The honkiest thing you ever heard.

Top row - pickups on/off
Bottom row - phase reversal



I'd like to hear what this sounds like on a Gibson guitar too. I wouldn't turn any pickups around. Changing the direction of the current with a switch is enough.

 

[jb_abides]

Agree, I love my Burns Red Special, although it's sunburst. I can run it through an Vox AC-30 and Vox BM Deacy, too.

FWIW: One of the 4 sliders on the @Elliot Easton TikiBird is a phase switch.

 

[wildschwein]

Cool scheme -- works well. I have applied it to several 2 humbucker guitars. The volume drop is most noticeable with a clean sound. For funk stuff it's actually perfect. With dirt and compression any drop in amplitude is far less noticeable. As noted by others here, you can also vary the volume of the pickups and dial in just the right amount. All the info for wiring you can adapt from here:

Wiring diagram for vintage 50's with phase - Seymour Duncan User Group Forums

All pickups. All the time.

forum.seymourduncan.com