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50’s PAF. Real or fake?

Gibsonian

Member
Joined
May 21, 2005
Messages
451
Hi. This is one of the pickups that’s in a Burst replica currently for sale (I posted about the guitar in the Non-Gibson pub yesterday).

paf_1.jpg

The seller claims it’s a real PAF, but as I was comparing the sticker to that of a real PAF (photo below), I noticed that the placement (or spacing) of the letters isn’t identical.

paf_2.jpg

I illustrated a couple examples below. You can see different relative positions of two P’s (indicated with yellow arrows) and T and E (orange arrows) between the real PAF and the “PAF” on the replica Les Paul. I checked some more pics of real PAF’s and all of them had the same letter placement as this real PAF. Consistent is how it’s supposed to be there, right?

paf_3.jpg

Do you think this is a non-PAF pup with just a fake PAF sticker?
 

Gibsonian

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Joined
May 21, 2005
Messages
451
At the moment, this is the only shot available. I've requested the seller to provide a clearer photo, but it hasn't been arranged yet.
 

brandtkronholm

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Dec 3, 2006
Messages
2,737
I doesn't look good - but as bern1 posted, it's not a very good picture.
(The slightly blurry picture is likely intentional. )
After checking out the posting about this guitar in the "non-Gibson" pub, I'm going to say that this is not a genuine PAF.
Run away.
 

bern1

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Joined
Nov 23, 2004
Messages
1,275
Fake or not, this reminds me of a set of “rules” I adopted very early on with eBay and online purchasing that have served pretty well. If the seller cannot be bothered to supply accurate, informative photos along with an accurate, complete description in plain English with no spelling errors, there is no reason for me to consider the item any further. No exceptions.
 

Sol

Active member
Joined
Oct 26, 2001
Messages
775
A genuine seller will provide you with any number of images you require to establish and address all and any possible concerns that you may have regarding authenticity..
ANY reluctance, excuse, or obfuscation to comply is your cue to walk away.
 

El Gringo

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Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
5,657
The decals doesn't necessarily make it a fake PAF. The "P"s generally do not line up perfectly. Also, in recent years, the fake stickers have gotten much better as well as the builders of fake PAFs. Here is some more, albeit older info. http://lashingguitars.com/art-fakepaf.html
Yesterday morning there was a post on this thread that I think was in Russian and later in the day it was gone . What was that about ? Was it connected with the seller ?
 

El Gringo

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Apr 8, 2015
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As far as buying Vintage PAF's , I would not buy them off Reverb or Ebay , because there is too much room for getting ripped off . A high sticker price item like that for me would have to be seen and inspected in person . Due to the proliferation of fake stickers and the scammers getting better at faking the tool marks on the feet etc. it's just to risky . I kick myself back in the late 90's I had a chance to get a real PAF , which was double black coils , no cover for 5 Benjamin's , and like a dummy I didn't . Very reputable shop , who I had done a lot of business with.
 

Gibsonian

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Joined
May 21, 2005
Messages
451
Yesterday morning there was a post on this thread that I think was in Russian and later in the day it was gone . What was that about ? Was it connected with the seller ?
I too saw the post in Russian, but I don't think it had anything to do with the seller or even a guitar. The seller here is a Japanese in Japan.
 

Gibsonian

Member
Joined
May 21, 2005
Messages
451
As far as buying Vintage PAF's , I would not buy them off Reverb or Ebay , because there is too much room for getting ripped off . A high sticker price item like that for me would have to be seen and inspected in person . Due to the proliferation of fake stickers and the scammers getting better at faking the tool marks on the feet etc. it's just to risky . I kick myself back in the late 90's I had a chance to get a real PAF , which was double black coils , no cover for 5 Benjamin's , and like a dummy I didn't . Very reputable shop , who I had done a lot of business with.
I'll take a pass on this PAF, but am still intereted in the provenance of the guitar itself.
 

Aloha_Ark

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Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
154
Below is a photo of the back of a real PAF on a 1959 Gibson guitar once owned by another LPF member. I am pretty sure it is genuine based on listening tests. I would be very wary of pickups without tool marks on the brackets. Such examples may exist, but their rarity would trigger anxiety in my mind. I have enough to worry about nowadays.
 

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AA00475Bassman

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Apr 26, 2016
Messages
3,769
PAF 's command top dollar way more then any other double coil , Although you can't distinguish sonically from a fake ?

I would not consider the pickups to be fakes & purchase the guitar on the other merits less PAF's .
 
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latestarter

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 9, 2009
Messages
4,173
Hi. This is one of the pickups that’s in a Burst replica currently for sale (I posted about the guitar in the Non-Gibson pub yesterday).

View attachment 14011

The seller claims it’s a real PAF, but as I was comparing the sticker to that of a real PAF (photo below), I noticed that the placement (or spacing) of the letters isn’t identical.

View attachment 14012

I illustrated a couple examples below. You can see different relative positions of two P’s (indicated with yellow arrows) and T and E (orange arrows) between the real PAF and the “PAF” on the replica Les Paul. I checked some more pics of real PAF’s and all of them had the same letter placement as this real PAF. Consistent is how it’s supposed to be there, right?

View attachment 14014

Do you think this is a non-PAF pup with just a fake PAF sticker?
That is not a real PAF decal. End of story.
 

brandtkronholm

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 3, 2006
Messages
2,737
Below is a photo of the back of a real PAF on a 1959 Gibson guitar once owned by another LPF member. I am pretty sure it is genuine based on listening tests. I would be very wary of pickups without tool marks on the brackets. Such examples may exist, but their rarity would trigger anxiety in my mind. I have enough to worry about nowadays.
Listening tests reveal nothing. Over the past 25 years, the PAF-style humbuckers made by Gibson and the boutique aftermarket pickups are indistinguishable from real PAFs.

Latestarter has it correct.
 

Wally

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Joined
Feb 27, 2003
Messages
3,535
Re: listening test....as I understand there was/can be a variety of Sonic results with vintage PAFS?????
 

Sol

Active member
Joined
Oct 26, 2001
Messages
775
In another life I studied photography. This was technical rather than art based, and looking at the images a few things stand out.
The PAF decal of concern was taken with a slightly wide angle lens setting, and at an angle I'm guessing approx 30° ? It appears to be cropped and blown up to provide a closer view. This might account for the poor image clarity.

In contrast the second image is taken almost directly above close to 0° with excellent clarity and with a perspective where lens effects are minimised in the center of the frame.

It's sadly impossible to compare the two decals photographed under such contrasting perspectives and angles, the yellow arrows are not able to compare like with like under these conditions.

Another photographer may chime in, I hope so I don't like being a lone voice saying these things a second opinion can only be a good thing.
 
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