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Guitar necks and how they effect tone.

Thundermtn

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Dec 30, 2016
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I want to ask about neck size (or stiffness) and how it influences tone. Al had some observations in another thread that seemed to correspond closely with what my ear hears as good tone.

Earlier this year I bought a guitar with supposedly a '58 neck profile. It's probably not 100% accurate but it's for sure a beefy neck, larger in profile than anything else I've bought before and a little outside my comfort zone on first impression. The thing was, it had great tone so I just kept playing it and after a few minutes sort of get used to the neck size.

Something was said about neck stiffness in relation to either stability or needing less fequent truss rod adjustments. When I started thinking about which of my guitars have the best tone they do tend to be the ones that need the least amount of monkeying with. Once they are setup how i like them they just stay put unless I get them out in really extreme temp and humidity swings.

Now for the can of worms.

Do these guitars sound better to my ears because they are higher quality in the lumber department?

Is it because they are stiffer than others of the same model in an in store A/B comparison, and my ear hears it as better tone than the others?

Does my more affordable new guitar acheive the same effect as stiffening/hardness by having a large neck? I know a lot of Robin guitar players go nuts over the baseball bat necks on some of those guitars.

Are there so many other variables going on that this is just a coincidence and each guitar is it's own animal?
 

Big Al

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As I understand it, it is stiffness that effects the tone. Vibration energy travels more efficiently, with more retained power and less distortion or alteration of the sound waves traveling through the wood, and maintaining the vibrating strings integrity through less alteration of reflected energy returned to the string at the headstock.

A few things to consider.

Bigger or more neck mass does seem to provide stiff necks with seasoned, quality, quartersawn wood. A must in one piece necks, IMO. I have found unstable or soft necks in fat one piece necks in post late 80's Gibsons, not common IME, but much more than vintage one piece necks or 69-83 three piece necks.

I have played killer sounding thin neck profile vintage guitars with noticeably stiff feel. A few modern ones, but I generally prefer fat necks and have not played as many. Still I've encountered so many unstable thin necks when I was doing tech work that it seemed to be a trend.
So slimmer necks can be stiff and have great tone but, at least IME, are harder to find.

Point of clarity, the thin necks I'm referencing are the Wizard style as found on early Classics. Custom Shop and some newer USA slim tapers have enough wood in their profiles, especially the CS models, to not suffer so noticeably.

Still, IMO fatter neck = fatter tone.

How do I determine a necks stiffness? Hit an open E on the 6th string and bend the B or G string up a whole step at the 9th fret. You don't pick the bent string, just let the open E sustain while bending the G string and listen if the E noticeably drops in pitch and returns to pitch when the bend is released. If it does it is soft. I have no use for such a neck.
 

sws1

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My very unscientific bias is that fatter necks mean fatter tone. I've heard others with far more exposures to guitars say the same thing. e.g., 59 bursts generally are fatter sounding than their thin-necked '60 siblings. I can only think of 1 guitar that's every been through my house where that wasn't true.

I like Al's neck-stiffness theory. Makes total sense to me.
 

renderit

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I like Al's theories period. Full Bull Goose Loony Howlin' At The Moon Stuff©®™℗℞ would be better but I like them just the same.
 

Thundermtn

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That neck test is great!

It's a quick and simple tool for checking stuff out that doesn't need the guitar to be plugged in and doesn't depend on personal style for results.

Would the carbon fiber reinforcement strips in some modern necks help, or do they just hold relief/shape while softer neck wood still dampens reflected tone?
 

deytookerjaabs

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There are bell curves for the various woods "stiffness" ratings, combined with saw patterns and mixed with the corresponding geometry of the fretboard, truss design, neck design, etc you really have a grab bag that you can perhaps generalize but, IMO, never nail down. Depending on these factors, anyone who's built and/or done some "flexing" of their own with truss nuts removed knows that "stiffness" isn't directly correlated to neck profile. I've had many thin necks with ebony boards that practically didn't budge, while I've had fat flat cuts of maple which had some serious movement!


That's without going into the fact that a truss rod acts as dampener. The counter-tension it provides and the user relief setting are huge, even bigger is where the necks starts/stops flexing, in pretty much any sold body design the flex goes to near zero where ever the neck joint is, regardless of sitting around worrying about joint design, none of the joints used in production solid body guitars have flex...period, end of story and I say that to a forum I know is full of "tenon" aficionados!

The "street" knowledge is that thin necks tend to allow for more treble while fat necks tend to lean towards more fundamental. But, I've seen the opposite be true enough times to just take every guitar on it's own. The old school of thought is that stiff design and wood choice (NOT neck profile) maximize the ability to "tune" the body for maximum projection (hence the evolution of the big band archtops), but that's not really a consideration needed for electric guitars.




If you're worried about Les Paul tone based on neck profile all I can tell you is the best damn 'burst recordings were made on everything from pencil necks to fatbacks. Don't let anyone bully you into thinking one guitar sounds better than the other.
 
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Thundermtn

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So this morning I've been noodling on all my solid bodies. It was pretty fun to just bust them all out and rip on them consecutively. Usually I pick one for a sound I'm after and stay on that one for the session.

From what I'm hearing there is a STRONG tendency for my guitars that I perceive to be my best in tone tending to have stiffer necks. Granted the sample size isn't overly large but it was large enough to dramatically hear the differences. I did notice that profile was not directly tied to stiffness but almost certainly is a contributing factor in final tone.

If I take my list of good tone ranked in descending order and correlate it with stiffness there were only a couple of spots that didn't match up and those were in the middle of the list.

So I started out playing on Wizard style necks, they are comfortable to me and I have several that are close to that profile. My Ibanez and B.C. Rich guitars mostly fail this test, ebony boards less so but still drop pitch. I still love them but they are set up to be played with high gain with hot pickups so their tone depends less on lumber and more on electronics. They do have the gain tone I want so it's not that much of an issue.

However I do believe this theory is a contributing factor in why I ended up with my Classic vs. all of the other LP's I played when I went looking for one. It has the stiffest neck of all my six strings and is for sure a thinner neck, similar to my B.C.'s. Per the test the only way I could get any amount of drop in pitch was to go a step up on the G with my thumb way down the board under the third fretwire, and even then it was marginal with this exaggerated thumb placement.

So a shout out thanks to Al for this theory and test. I will deffinatly be using it for future new guitar evaluations. Helps explain part of why my LPC is what it is. It also make me wonder if I should trade in a couple and put a hot set of pups into a metal guitar that does pass the test and see what that would sound like.
 

Big Al

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I'm not trying to bully anyone, just posting what I have found to be true from personal experience. Instead of comming up with a bunch of unrelated factoid to confuse folks I addressed the most commonly found LP neck.

Simple one piece mahogany. I hear a noticeable fuller stronger tone with a stiff neck, fat or thin. IME, fatter necks sound better. Ebony fingerboards do not stiffen soft necks. I have a 93 Les Paul Studio Lite Plus with the wizard neck super slim profile and ebony board. It's a rubber neck. I don't assume it is because of the ebony board. Why assume the opposite? Where are these super slim, super stiff ebony board single piece LP necks that are so common?

You do realise I was addressing the super sim wizard early 90's neck right?

I would imagine an ebony neck would be wonderful, I have a one piece rosewood neck and I find it excellent.

I don't know why you brought up tenons? I've never seen anyone claim tenons flex on this form, except you. Again, has nothing to do with stiffness, EXCEPT the fact that the neck joint on Les Pauls only allows 13 frets worth of neck before heel and joint remove flex from the design. A design that INCREASES stiffness and is a key factor in great Les Paul tone. Tenons are important tone modifiers though not the subject of this thread. You seem not to fully understand the function beon the not in question flex theory no one seems to champion.

I posted what I found in relation to similar necks with very different profiles. I noticed a clear and definate difference in tone and performance. I posted why I thought one group in general IMO was better and the other not, IMO.

I did or do not think it is size alone, and though I believe more mass means greater sound transference, it is the relative stiffness that is making the difference. I tried to show how and why I believe this.

My thoughts, my opinion and my experience. I thought that was clear. I didn't bully anyone and is not my intent other than to try and understand and share what I know.

What I do not do is throw out some bullshit psuedo facts unrelated to the topic at hand to baffle and confuse while making grand pronouncements or decree, nor insinuations about others motives
I don't believe I did, but I detected some,.. a little bit, I think I heard a little bit.
 

Thundermtn

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I'm not trying to say they are stiffer b/c of the ebony, that was just my observation with my small sample of ebony boarded guitars. The type of wood in the board shouldn't have much effect on stiffness, the difference in stiffness of rosewood and ebony shouldn't be very large.
 

deytookerjaabs

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I'm not trying to say they are stiffer b/c of the ebony, that was just my observation with my small sample of ebony boarded guitars. The type of wood in the board shouldn't have much effect on stiffness, the difference in stiffness of rosewood and ebony shouldn't be very large.



In the engineering world there are well used measurements for specific wood species that are published through many sources. It's been a while, but from what I recall there's some notable measurements which are something akin to: measure of elasticity, tension parallel to grain, compression perpendicular and parallel to the grain, etc. Species of African Ebony from the East like Nigeria and Madagascar (technically an island) are notably stronger than most Rosewoods, specifically Indian, in all the major categories, something like 25-30% on average but it's been a while since I looked at this stuff. Meanwhile, there are other "ebony" species which are on par with the basic Rosewood species, so,...you know.

I studied under a luthier back home who builds 12th fret joining solid bodies with extra wide semi fat necks with no truss rod (like a classical) and insists they have superior tone. Maybe they do? I didn't build or buy one but I played them many times.

As for stiff necks, there's one resident LPF genius who took a functional neck and gave it semi-permanent backbow with a simple inaugural fretjob. I won't name names but how's that for stiff??
 

Big Al

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I'm not trying to say they are stiffer b/c of the ebony, that was just my observation with my small sample of ebony boarded guitars. The type of wood in the board shouldn't have much effect on stiffness, the difference in stiffness of rosewood and ebony shouldn't be very large.

Brother, I wasn't adressing you in my post. I find nothing to disagree with at all, it pretty much mirrors my own experience. I find it most interesting about your Classic, I know how much it means to you. The best sounding Classic I ever heard belongs to a good friend and great player who I've known forever. It is a first year premium plus top in that great color Cherry Burst they had. BEAUTIFUL!! It has the same neck as my 93 except it is stable and as stiff as my R9's.

This guitar is the very one that started my considering stiffness as having more effect than size alone for the type of tone I like. I may be using the wrong term, but in my mind stiffness is the way I think of it.
Isn't it interesting about yours? Maybe that stiff neck is why you've had it so long?
I haven't played any with carbon strips for reinforcement, but a bassist I greatly respect swears by them.
 

Big Al

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In the engineering world there are well used measurements for specific wood species that are published through many sources. It's been a while, but from what I recall there's some notable measurements which are something akin to: measure of elasticity, tension parallel to grain, compression perpendicular and parallel to the grain, etc. Species of African Ebony from the East like Nigeria and Madagascar (technically an island) are notably stronger than most Rosewoods, specifically Indian, in all the major categories, something like 25-30% on average but it's been a while since I looked at this stuff. Meanwhile, there are other "ebony" species which are on par with the basic Rosewood species, so,...you know.

I studied under a luthier back home who builds 12th fret joining solid bodies with extra wide semi fat necks with no truss rod (like a classical) and insists they have superior tone. Maybe they do? I didn't build or buy one but I played them many times.

As for stiff necks, there's one resident LPF genius who took a functional neck and gave it semi-permanent backbow with a simple inaugural fretjob. I won't name names but how's that for stiff??

One effect of compression fret jobs is increased stiffness. Big reason I never liked the Teeter glue in type. With experience you can control the compression effect by altering the tang. I over compressed my first attempt at a fret job back in the 70's. I got better.
 

Thundermtn

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Dec 30, 2016
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It has to be a contributing factor as to why I like it's tone so well and haven't been really motivated to move up. Makes me wonder what would happen if I put a 50's harness in it. Thanks everyone for the input!
 

deytookerjaabs

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One effect of compression fret jobs is increased stiffness. Big reason I never liked the Teeter glue in type. With experience you can control the compression effect by altering the tang. I over compressed my first attempt at a fret job back in the 70's. I got better.



It amazes me how much silly little things like slot width combined with tang can screw with a guitar. The more I go along I seem to have the opposite experience as many of my brethren...I think I've got what I like and how things sound figured out then prove myself wrong, time and time again. That's why my philosophy is to just try it all when the chance is given, guitars always surprise me, my latest more than anything.




A special shout out to "stiff necks" here, I know I'm going out on a limb, but the 2015 Gibson LP Juniors. Yeah, not the thickest back profile, but it's kind of a D, stout, the extra wide neck and extra wide fretboard (no binding too) make for a stiff SOB. I owned one for a short period of time a while back (returned it only because I had a couple guitars fall in my lap the following week). Yeah, the tuners, multi piece bod, funky nut, bla bla, ignore that and they're special, different. Might be one of the stiffest necks I've ever played on a Gibson electric, almost like a classical. That said, they had 8 in the shop and it's always nice to try 8 identical guitars out and think about how different they sound even before plugging in.
 

Big Al

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Yup, I like certain size profiles, for feel. Larger necks do it for me. Stiffer necks do it too. I feel both contribute to reinforceing the tone I like. This became crystal clear with Fenders and my own preference for vintage guitars in my life started in searching out vintage guitars for the larger necks.

Fat necks were not cool or hip in the 70's, thin was in. Assigning tonal benifits came later, as I had to unlearn all the myth and BS that was just being parroted and regurgitated, blind faith and assumptions. I want to understand, the why and how. I took acoustic engineering classes at UCSB, ran sound FOH, became a recording engineer and later produced at my own studios. I have learned a lot on this forum and there are amazingly inciteful people here who have increased my knowledge greatly.

This here forum is unequaled for knowledge, it is the best.
 

mad dog

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I'm with Big Al on this. Nothing scientific about it for me. Just that a couple of the best sounding solid bodies I've heard had what felt like very stiff necks. Such as a mid 70s Guild S-90, a modest take on the SG formula. One piece mahogany neck, one piece body. A light guitar, but that rather slim neck was as rock steady a thing as I've ever felt. The whole guitar rang like a bell. Could not be pulled out of tune, unlike so many SGs. Plugged in, the closest ever in my experience to a 50s flying V sound. Which is downright strange. Great p/us, but could it be the neck??
 
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