Help with a bit of a frankenstein LP

[onanboy]

I am very new so if this is not the correct forum for this request for help, please let me know.

I have a LP gold top. I am uncertain of the year. Yes, I know about the serial number pages that help with dating an LP but I don't think that I understand where my guitar fits.

The number on the back of the headstock is 516064. I tried to post the image but I couldn't get it to work. You can try this link

The full story from my point of view is that my Dad bought it for me around my first year of college, probably 1984. It was painted Oxblood when we bought it from a music store on State Street in Ann Arbor. I think that we were told that the previous owner was a Jeff Beck fan and had painted it to match the cover of Blow By Blow. Being a Beck fan, I was jazzed but he (or she) had done a poor job of sealing the back of it. Anyway, the following year it got knocked off of its stand and broke between the headstock and the neck.

My father found out that we could get it repaired at the old Gibson plant in Kalamazoo. By this time I am pretty sure that it was the Heritage plant already (approx. 1986). We took it there and met with a guy in some kind of workshop. He said he could fix it but that it was originally a goldtop so would we like him to return it to that? We eagerly said yes. I do remember him looking around and finding some original top hat knobs to replace what the last owner had put on.

Anyway, he did a pretty decent job. There were a couple of places that some woodworking flaws showed through but they were minor. He did reuse the Schaller tuners that the previous owner had put on.
I have no idea where the serial number came from. Was it a number on some leftover LP necks that were still laying around the plant? Was the new neck used and the guy stamped it with the serial number from the old headstock? I do know that my Dad sent me a picture of the old neck but without the old headstock so that only helps to confirm that the guitar now has a replacement neck not a repaired neck.

Here is a picture of the guitar today.

Any suggestions would be helpful.

 

[jb_abides]

Could be: Early Series, Late Sixties... headstock pic looks close. Might want to post a full frontal of the headstock to compare logo with this example:

More on that Early Series here: http://www.latesixtieslespauls.com/early.asp

HEADSTOCK:​

The most sought after Goldtops of this era will have a 50's headstock design. Around serial number 53920x-53924x, Goldtops jumped to a larger sized variant. Remember, this ONLY affects GT's. Customs have had the larger headstock since the 50's to accommodate the multi-ply binding they exhibit. NOTE: GT's will now have the traditional 'Les Paul Model' silkscreen over the finish on the headstock. Wood veneer. Not sure what kind, but I'm certain its wood and not plastic. No 8xxxxx series guitars will have a small headstock. (EXCEPT, possibly the extremely rare "First Reissue" guitars. They may have serials in the high 899xxx range. SO RARE as to be statistically insignificant.)

Earlier guitars in the run will have a dot over the "i" in Gibson, whereas later guitars will NOT have a dot. An open 'b' and 'o'. Certainly not the smooth, all closed lettered 70's logo. The dot seems to disappear around serial 539,xxx in GT's. For Customs, the cutoff is less clear. I would guess it to be around 539,xxx, but I have heard of a 558,xxx Custom with one. Ill clarify Customs at a later date.

CAVITY ROUTING:​

Guitars actually built earlier in the run (aka, shipped in 68) tend to exhibit routes with straight walls and a flat maple floor. (EDUCATED GUESS FOLLOWS: Basically the earlier guitars had their cavities routed BEFORE the maple cap was applied. Later guitars were routed in the traditional 50's style AFTER the maple cap was applied. This leaves a little shelf at the bottom of the cavity.) IN SUMMARY, earlier guitars (1968) will have the inaccurate cavity route, whereas the later ones (early 1969 and on) will be more accurate in this respect. This change occurs in early 1969 and remains in place for the remainder of LSLPs. The wiring channel from the pickups will be the small square route typical of 50's guitars. The square is about 3/4 of an inch on each side. It emerges in the cavity slightly further down from center between the pots than a 50's guitar will. (As observed on a early 69 example.)

....

Best recommendation is to examine the pot codes, assuming no changes to pickups, wiring harness to confirm this would be a Late Sixties Les Paul. See http://www.latesixtieslespauls.com

....

Serial Number - Late Sixties Les Paul

Is your guitar from the 1960's or the 1970's?​

Gibson reused serial numbers from the LSLP period in about 1975 or so. Look at your headstock logo. Note the "b" and "o" in 'Gibson'. Now, look at the images below. Are they open like the left image? If so, you may have an LSLP, continue to the next boxes. Are they closed like the image on the right? Sorry, unless your guitar is a heavily modified or repaired LSLP, it is not from the sixties. Thanks for visiting the site anyway!

IMPORTANT :
NO LSLP SHIPPED WITH "MADE IN THE USA" STAMPED BELOW THE SERIAL NUMBER.

1960's Logo (LEFT) vs. 1970's Logo (RIGHT, non-original tuners)​

Which serial number range does your guitar fall into?​

506xxx - 561xxx?​

You may have what I call an "Early Series". These guitars have many 50's features including 1pc construction, P-90's, and long tenon neck joints. Since "First Reissues" are so rare, these "Early Reissues" are what people most commonly think of when they refer to "1968" Les Pauls. In truth, this era spans from the 4th quarter of 1968 through to the end of the 2nd quarter of 1969!

Want to learn more?
Want to be sure that your guitar fits in this category?
Click the jack plate below to plug into the part of my site that is about your type of LSLP.
Don't forget to visit "Common Features" for general information on LSLP guitars.
_________________________

ISSUE will be: is that stamp accurate, especially the prominent 2nd digit '1'? and doesn't look like you have MADE IN USA stamped below, correct?
__________________________

Here's another serial number guide:

How to date a Gibson Les Paul: Serial numbers, potentiometer codes, an

Easily date your vintage Les Paul guitar by serial number search, potentiometer codes, and features. True Vintage Guitar.

truevintageguitar.com

• If the Gibson Les Paul serial number is six digits or less then your guitar may be older than 1975.
• 3 to 6 die stamped (No MADE IN USA) 1961 - 1969
• 6 digits die stamped with MADE IN USA 1970-1975

Gibson Les Paul serial numbers with 6 digits or less and​

Gibson used the 6 digits or less die stamped serial number style from 1961 until 1975. Gibson guitars with "MADE IN USA" impressed below the serial were made from 1969 and on. If your guitar has 6 digits impressed on the headstock and a "MADE IN USA" underneath then it was likely made between 1969 and 1975. Gibson reused serial numbers during this time period so that's as close as we can narrow these guitars down without reading the potentiometer codes. The serial number is only one way for how to date a Gibson Les Paul from the 1960s. Often the features and potentiometer codes are a better way.

 

[onanboy]

That serial number reference is way better than the one I found online.

Here is a better (maybe) pic of the front of the headstock. Yes, there is NO Made In USA stamped below the serial number.

If it helps, here is a pic of the internal pot wiring. Untouched that I know of.

 

[onanboy]

Duplicate post

 

[jb_abides]

I haven't seen these variety of Sprague or dimple pots in the purported era of guitar; perhaps another LPF member who's more of an expert in that matter will provide guidance.

Can't read the numbers on those pots. You'll have to transcribe. Same for the full writing on those Sprague caps.

Could be these were re-done during the Kalamazoo rehab...?

 

[GlassSnuff]

Welcome! It looks like you have a one-piece (we don't count the "wings" on the headstock) mahogany neck. That's a good thing.

 

[onanboy]

Maybe this will help with the cap and the pot.

New Picture

Still not getting this image posting thing. Don't know where a "landscape" button is.

 

[poor man's burst]

Pot is dated 1988.

 

[jb_abides]

.

 

[onanboy]

So the "88" part of the R13788** number tells us that the pot was manufactured in 1988. The only way that could be is if they not only changed the knobs but the whole pots and wiring. Maybe my timeline is off by a few years. I blame old age.

Do the Sprague P19432 caps also line up with 1988?

Another pot view

By the way, thank you all for your assistance. There is a lot of knowledge on this board!

 

[onanboy]

I set up a Postimages account.

 

[Wilko]

That is a 1968 guitar. The only year to have that cavity shape. The cavity was cut BEFORE the top was glued on so the sides are straight. No angle cut or tool gouges.

That pot date is also 1968. EARLY 1968 Late FEB. Before the model was introduced. They came out in june of that year. It probably had a crown logo headstock originally.

 

[poor man's burst]

That is a 1968 guitar. The only year to have that cavity shape. The cavity was cut BEFORE the top was glued on so the sides are straight. No angle cut or tool gouges.

That pot date is also 1968. EARLY 1968 Late FEB. Before the model was introduced. They came out in june of that year. It probably had a crown logo headstock originally.

As of me, I see 13788XX on the volume pot and XXXXX23 on the tone pot. Assuming the pots are matched, that dates June 1988. Did I miss something?

 

[Wilko]

As of me, I see 13788XX on the volume pot and XXXXX23 on the tone pot. Assuming the pots are matched, that dates June 1988. Did I miss something?

Pot codes are MMMYWW where m=manufacturer Y= year and W=week. If that's a 60s pot. 7 digit would mean the guitar was redone in '88.

That cavity was only made in 1968. period.

Also, that headstock is original 1968 as well. Nothing else looks like that. Font, shape, color--all point to '68.
Can you show pics of the back of the neck?

 

[Wilko]

Here are some '68 serials:

 

[seafood]

I'm with You, Wilko !!!! I've owned several early 68s !!! Cheers !

 

[poor man's burst]

Pot codes are MMMYWW where m=manufacturer Y= year and W=week. If that's a 60s pot. 7 digit would mean the guitar was redone in '88.

That cavity was only made in 1968. period.

Also, that headstock is original 1968 as well. Nothing else looks like that. Font, shape, color--all point to '68.
Can you show pics of the back of the neck?

My post was about the pots date only.

 

[Wilko]

'88 is later than the '84 estimate from the OP. I don't see any numbers after the 13788 just slag and flux. Could very easily be 88 pots.

 

[poor man's burst]

'88 is later than the '84 estimate from the OP. I don't see any numbers after the 13788 just slag and flux. Could very easily be 88 pots.

I see 23 on the tone pot on the picture in post#11.

 

[S. Weiger]

Pot codes are MMMYWW where m=manufacturer Y= year and W=week. If that's a 60s pot. 7 digit would mean the guitar was redone in '88.

That cavity was only made in 1968. period.

Also, that headstock is original 1968 as well. Nothing else looks like that. Font, shape, color--all point to '68.
Can you show pics of the back of the neck?

Just for clarification: the pot code was MMMYWW in the 40's and 50's. (Only 1 digit for the year)

But 1960 - onwards should be MMMYYWW (2 digits for the year.) Am I right?