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Hotter Bridge Pickup?

asdaven

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Nov 9, 2022
Messages
35
Have two pickups that are around PAF output ~8-8.5K. Does anybody run a Hotter bridge pickup like 12K with a PAF output neck? Is this a good idea? How would they sound combined? Do pickups need to be installed as a set or can brands, models, and outputs be mismatched?

Thanks-
 

tjdjr1

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Mar 7, 2016
Messages
71
A lot of players run a hotter bridge pickup and does not have to be matching brands. Only thing with non matching brands is making sure they will be in phase when wiring. The resistance reading is always a way of judging the hotness but it works for me. I run a little hotter like 9k with like 8.3 in the neck.
 

Bryansamui

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Jul 1, 2022
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Theres no rules . Arguably the most famous Humbucker set in History (Jimmy Page) ran a 7.6k+/- bridge and an 8.6k+/- neck in the Zeppelin era.
 

asdaven

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Nov 9, 2022
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35
I see some people run a hotter neck and weaker bridge but then alot run a hotter bridge and weaker neck. Just wondering the reasoning. Technically the bridge is supposed to be the lead pickup and the neck the rhythm. Generally the speaking. Where a hot pickup might muddy up the neck where it might be useful in the bridge which is a lot brighter to thicken it up.
 

Bryansamui

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Good question!:. Firstly the original PAFs were just installed 'willy nilly. No designated Bridge or Neck pickup , so often the higher wind could be the Neck.

2: I have a set where my 8.5k Neck has LESS power/output than the the 7.5k Bridge because because of the Magnet types..Take a high wind Pickup (let's say 15k) and remove the magnet. Now the output is Zero ,but the pickup is still 15k !....I do balance outputs levels with the height adjustment screws in the pickup surrounds.

3:The idea with having the Darker Pickup in the Darker Neck slot and the Brighter pickup in the bridge slot ( like a Telecaster Custom) is quite clever. That " Unbalanced" sound creates 3 wildly different tones , like having 3 guitars..It maximises the tonal differences not minimises them! .It also opens up the middle position sound rather than it being ' the unloved Red Headed Child' with that muddy lower midrange.
 

asdaven

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Nov 9, 2022
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35
Alot of these "hotter" bridge pickups are wound with 43 gauge wire instead of the original 42 gauge. What difference would this cause in the sound?
 

Bryansamui

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Jul 1, 2022
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198
Alot of these "hotter" bridge pickups are wound with 43 gauge wire instead of the original 42 gauge. What difference would this cause in the sound?
The 42 gauge is thicker than 43 and as such you can't get as many turns on the bobbin with 42
So about 9k ohms (I think?) and the bobbins full, so so get the more winds and a hotter wound pickup, one had to go to 43 guage.
With more winds with the 43 gauge ,this causes the pickup to become "DARKER in tone and if using an "identical" magnet LOUDER too .The loudness increase isn't proportional though ( 12000 turns isn't twice as loud as 6000 for instance, it's just a bit louder).And the magnet plays a large role too...Some lower wind pickups can be louder than higher winds because of the magnet..Joe Barden pickups are really high output and only 3.5k!!

What the difference in tone is, between 42 and 43 wire at an identical resistance and identical magnet , I don't know ,
Maybe someone could chime in?
 

asdaven

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Nov 9, 2022
Messages
35
Right now I have a set of pickups around 8-8.5K with Alnico 5 magnets. The Bridge is closer to 8.5K and the neck less. Theyre considered PAF level output. 42 gauge wire as well for both. The bridge pickup im getting is 43 gauge wire, around 12.5K and also Alnico 5 which is the magnet I like best. I couldve gotten a 16K pickup but I thought that would be too much as im just going for slightly hotter. The guitar has coil splits which im considering changing to a parallel option on the push/pulls instead of a traditional coil split. Part of the reason im considering a hotter bridge is it will be warmer and wont be as weak and thin when split or in parallel.
 

Bryansamui

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Jul 1, 2022
Messages
198
That's right. A beefier pickup runs less chance of sounding thin if split ..Don't get too hung up on DCR readings . A pickup I have here reading 8.5k in stinking hot Australia will probably read 7.5k in New York at the minute because of the temperature differences.
Similarly, with your magnets, you say you like A5s. Take a note where you got them from because they're all different depending on how and where they were made....Not all A5s are created equal..Many winders may tell you the DCR of their pickups at say 68 Fahrenheit.. That won't tell you much. They generally won't sell you their magnets. It's like a beer brewer being highly guarded about their house yeast.
 

somebodyelseuk

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Joined
Jun 10, 2020
Messages
454
Have two pickups that are around PAF output ~8-8.5K. Does anybody run a Hotter bridge pickup like 12K with a PAF output neck? Is this a good idea? How would they sound combined? Do pickups need to be installed as a set or can brands, models, and outputs be mismatched?

Thanks-
Rule #1 - There are no rules.

'Back in the day', Gibson and Fender didn't make pickups for specific positions, unless the instrument had different pickups, like the Tele. They made A P90, A PAF, A Strat pickup. The specification of each individual pickup varied from pickup to pickup.
When they were wiring guitars, they pulled the required number of pickups from a bucket and 'soldered them where they landed'.
It's not uncommon for the 'hotter' pickup to be found in the neck or middle position on pre-80s guitars. The Gibson Custom Shop still does it that way, though with more controlled winding these days, it's more common to find two 'identical' pickups in the guitar.

The last two Strats I wired up - one of them in my profile photo - I deliberately wired the 'hotter' pickup in the middle position, with the neck and bridge pickups both being close/identical to each other, according to DCR.
The pickups were made by a reputable up and coming UK winder, with the specific instruction that he put enough lead on them to reach the neck position on all of them.
 

Bryansamui

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198
Rule #1 - There are no rules.

'Back in the day', Gibson and Fender didn't make pickups for specific positions, unless the instrument had different pickups, like the Tele. They made A P90, A PAF, A Strat pickup. The specification of each individual pickup varied from pickup to pickup.
When they were wiring guitars, they pulled the required number of pickups from a bucket and 'soldered them where they landed'.
It's not uncommon for the 'hotter' pickup to be found in the neck or middle position on pre-80s guitars. The Gibson Custom Shop still does it that way, though with more controlled winding these days, it's more common to find two 'identical' pickups in the guitar.

The last two Strats I wired up - one of them in my profile photo - I deliberately wired the 'hotter' pickup in the middle position, with the neck and bridge pickups both being close/identical to each other, according to DCR.
The pickups were made by a reputable up and coming UK winder, with the specific instruction that he put enough lead on them to reach the neck position on all of them.
Spot on there are no rules..Here's something bizzare.. A Fender Telecaster Custom ( Bridge single coil, Neck Humbucker)gets closer to Jimmy Pages #1 Les Paul than an Production Les Paul.The production LP being way to dark in the bridge slot and all mud in middle.The Tele isn't right either but it's closer.Pagey had a lower wind T Top in the bridge which was really bright.
 

somebodyelseuk

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Messages
454
Spot on there are no rules..Here's something bizzare.. A Fender Telecaster Custom ( Bridge single coil, Neck Humbucker)gets closer to Jimmy Pages #1 Les Paul than an Production Les Paul.The production LP being way to dark in the bridge slot and all mud in middle.The Tele isn't right either but it's closer.Pagey had a lower wind T Top in the bridge which was really bright.
I played Yamaha SGs in the '80s - a 1000S and a 2000S. They have crazy loud pickups, as a result there's a misconception around the 'net that they had overwound coils. I measured them a few years ago - 7.1k bridge, 7.5k neck, in both. The A5 magnets have 3-4x the charge you typically find on a PAF clone.
I'm not familiar with the early 70s Gibson bucker specs, but it wouldn't surprise me if they were the same as Yamaha's - Yamaha copying Gibson.
Do they sound as good as PAF-a-likes. Not in my opinion, but they don't have the mudiness you'd get with 'hotter wound' pickups (10k+), and the middle position has 'something' you don't get with the so-called 'balanced' modern sets.
As it happens, the Strats I mentioned in my previous post, sound fantastic in all positions, and also sound better in the in between positions than a contemporary 'balanced' set.
FWIW, my giggers are HSS Strat-a-likes, with vintage specced Seymour Duncan pickups. I was in a band about 20 years back, with a guitarist who had just bought a new LP Standard. My HSS in bridge position sounded more like a vintage Les Paul than his actual Gibson Les Paul, bizarrely - not claiming it sounded 'exactly like', just significantly 'closer to'.
 

Bryansamui

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There are some Joe Barden pickups that are only 3.5k that are pretty hot output
 

Wilko

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the same pickup will have more outp[ut in the neck position because of more string motion there. That's why it's a nicer balance to put hotter pickup in bridge spot.

8-8.5 is hot for vintage spec.

Whether or not it's a good idea to go hotter is entirely dependent on the sound you are going for.

IMNSHO, any hotter than 8.5k is too hot for most of my vintage amps and .010 strings.
 

Bryansamui

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Yes, it's normally accepted that the more powerful pickup is in the bridge .
However, sometimes the more Powerful ( louder ) pickup can be the one with the lower DCR resistance..My 7.6k +/- Bridge Pickup for instance has more output than my 8.5k Neck due to magnet type .
If I took a 15k pickup and removed the magnet,it would have zero output but would still be 'hot' at 15k I suppose.
 

Wilko

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You made your point, but that is the exception, not the rule. MOST pickups are built just about the same, in an attempt copy the formula that Gibson started. The DC resistance is a fair indicator in most cases about what the output is expected to be. Magnet swaps can make a huge difference, as you've said.

The Jimmy page numbers cited above are not exactly true either. We don't know the measured numbers of the double-white that most of the good stuff was done with. Yes it was replaced by a T-Top so we can assume it was likely in that 7.6k range. How it related to the neck pickup in output is unknown as well. His tone is one of the most contested and varied even though he didn't use much gear. Hiwatt, Supro, Marshall, very light strings, etc.
 

Bryansamui

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You made your point, but that is the exception, not the rule. MOST pickups are built just about the same, in an attempt copy the formula that Gibson started. The DC resistance is a fair indicator in most cases about what the output is expected to be. Magnet swaps can make a huge difference, as you've said.

The Jimmy page numbers cited above are not exactly true either. We don't know the measured numbers of the double-white that most of the good stuff was done with. Yes it was replaced by a T-Top so we can assume it was likely in that 7.6k range. How it related to the neck pickup in output is unknown as well. His tone is one of the most contested and varied even though he didn't use much gear. Hiwatt, Supro, Marshall, very light strings, etc.
Yes..We don't know the exact measured numbers.The digital meters weren't around.Also the approximates that were relayed back to me by Clive Coulson did not mention temperature.
 
Last edited:

asdaven

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Nov 9, 2022
Messages
35
So any idea the difference in sound or output between a humbucker maxed out with 42 wiring (~9K) and a humbucker wound with 43 gauge wire thats around 12-13K? I understand this is hard to compare with different gauge wires.
 

brandtkronholm

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Dec 3, 2006
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2,737
Good question!:. Firstly the original PAFs were just installed 'willy nilly. No designated Bridge or Neck pickup , so often the higher wind could be the Neck.

2: I have a set where my 8.5k Neck has LESS power/output than the the 7.5k Bridge because because of the Magnet types..Take a high wind Pickup (let's say 15k) and remove the magnet. Now the output is Zero ,but the pickup is still 15k !....I do balance outputs levels with the height adjustment screws in the pickup surrounds.

3:The idea with having the Darker Pickup in the Darker Neck slot and the Brighter pickup in the bridge slot ( like a Telecaster Custom) is quite clever. That " Unbalanced" sound creates 3 wildly different tones , like having 3 guitars..It maximises the tonal differences not minimises them! .It also opens up the middle position sound rather than it being ' the unloved Red Headed Child' with that muddy lower midrange.
Putting the bright pickup in the bridge and the dark pickup in the neck is a fascinating idea!
 

Wilko

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Putting the bright pickup in the bridge and the dark pickup in the neck is a fascinating idea!
It is a bit intriquing. I like the idea of such a disparate sound. Maybe more jazzbox on the neck, and Tele on the bridge. A good wood Les Paul with a bright pickup (T-Tops are great with modern amps). Vintage Bursts can get very tele like in the right hands.
 
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