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Intonation woes

coreybox

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Feb 1, 2006
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316
Well, after adjusting my action (raising it quiet a bit) on my new 336, i've come up with a problem. The bridge saddlse are as far back as they can go, and the intonation is still off(way off on the bass e string).

Is there anything i can do to help this?

thanks
corey
 

dwagar

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Apr 18, 2005
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4,451
scratching my head here.
Raising the action - shouldn't that make the string fractionally longer, causing you to take the saddles closer to the neck?
Or am I ass backwards in my logic?
 

coreybox

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Feb 1, 2006
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Gibsononly said:
The saddle should be moving toward the nut.

If the 12th fret is sharp in relation to the open string....the saddel needs to move away from the nut. Is that not correct? You are telling me different?


thanks
corey
 

curt1lp

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Nov 17, 2005
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Corey,

Make sure the string is well stretched before checking the intonation, also if you are using unusually large gauge, this might be a problem as the larger gauge requires more lengthening of the bridge-nut distance for correct intonation that a smaller gauge string at the same pitch. Also lowering the action might help as you will need less correction for the pitch sharpening which occurs by stretching of the string pressing it down (over and above the sharpening by stopping at the fret). (please correct if I'm wrong about this guys.)
 

OLIE J

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Mar 29, 2002
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337
coreybox, you're coerrect. After raising the action, the string has to bend more to reach the frets, thus making the fretted note sharp. The saddle needs to move back as you are doing. If the fretted note was flat you would move the saddle forward. Remember the three Fs. Frettted note Flat =Foward.
If you are trying to intonate with used strings, that might be your problem. Put some new strings on and see if that helps.
 

Desertdawg

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Nov 25, 2001
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2,057
You might also want to check the angle of the bridge posts. If they are leaning forward, you'll hit this problem on the low E string.
 

coreybox

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I think it might be the bridge post actually. They appear to be slightly, slightly bent; so little so that it is hard to tell for sure.
 
T

Troels

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Gibsononly said:
I think you are right. The saddle should be moving toward the nut.

No... as a string comes a bit longer away from the fingerboard it must be streched a bit more as well making it a bit more sharp and should be compensated with a bit longer mensur... Gibson have build guitars for 100 years+ but they still don't know ehere to place the bridge - so this is a normal problem for Gibson guitars
 

clayville

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Feb 25, 2004
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I just scanned through the chapter in Dan Erlewine's book (How to Make Your Electric Guitar Play Great) and among other things he says the following (and I'm paraphrasing):

* Make sure you've made your other adjustments first (truss rod relief, string height, pup height, etc)

* Install new strings 24 hours ahead (and check the intonation 24 hours after you're done) to accomodate normal stretching.

* A plain string needs more compensation than a wound one of the same diameter, heavy gauge strings need less than light gauge

* If the fretted octave note is flat, move the saddle toward the neck. If its sharp, move it toward the tail.

* fret the 12th fret note with the same pressure you use when playing -- too hard and you'll pull it sharp if your frets are high.

* if you have trouble, try lowering your neck pup a bit. The magnetic pull can interfere with the result.

'Hope that helps!
 

coreybox

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Feb 1, 2006
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Thanks clay...i've got all that covered

Can anyone elaborate on this though.
clayville said:
A plain string needs more compensation than a wound one of the same diameter, heavy gauge strings need less than light gauge

What is meant by more compensation. And what difference would using larger gauge strings be (meaning if i went up to 11s from 10s would it be more sharp or flat if no adjustments were made?)

thanks
corey
 

clayville

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Well, that paragraph of Dan's book (p. 92) is generally attributed to a tech/builder in Stockholm, Sweden named Paul Guy. Thicker strings lead to higher tension when fretted and therefore they need additional increase in the string length (or 'compensation') to intonate... as I read his advice.

The "plain vs. wound of the same diameter" comment presumably refers to the overall tension of the string (though I don't really get it either). He also says heavier strings need less compensating lengthening at the saddle than lighter strings because they're already at a higher overall tension... which I think means (based on what he's saying) that if you went up to 11s and the intonation was set for 10s, the saddles should move toward the neck a wee bit.

:hmm
 

coreybox

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Feb 1, 2006
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Alright....so i guess using 11s could possibly make my intonation better. I prefer them anyways. when i get around to it and change them i'll post here with my experience.

kind of a bummer with these little things.....still a killer guitar though (i think it's worth it)

thanks clay

corey
 

clayville

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Corey: I've read the paragraph (and what I wrote) half a dozen times... and it still seems contradictory to me.

Every little tweak can throw things off, and it is frustrating if you're seeking perfection instead of a workable compromise. One thing I did when I moved to 11s on my 356 is to Top Wrap, and there seemed to be enough play in the saddles on my bridge to get it to intonate... but I don't think that had anything to do with the intonation: nut-to-saddle distance isn't affected by the top wrap (on the other hand, the overall tension seems to be slinkier than without it).
 

coreybox

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Feb 1, 2006
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clayville said:
Corey: I've read the paragraph (and what I wrote) half a dozen times... and it still seems contradictory to me.

Yeah, how it says " Thicker strings lead to higher tension when fretted and therefore they need additional increase in the string length" and then "heavier strings need less compensating".
 
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