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Ovaltone Nue Device Caps?

tonyfrancis

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Sep 12, 2014
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audiofool.jpg
That is too funny. :applaude
 

Big Al

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I was a rabid paper in oil cap fanatic until I had an audio engineer/designer sit me down and educate me. No audio signal flows through a capacitor in a passive guitar circuit. The cap value sets the frequencies attenuated by sending to ground. I compared selected caps of all styles with exact identical measured values. All in my favorite guitar. I played, I recorded, I measured, analysed and scoped. Most importantly, I listend. I will admit I cannot tell the difference among equal value caps in passive guitar circuits.

I don't know what these are. New technology is everywhere and maybe these are some kind of multistage, reactive variable capacitor that uses a shifting more complex capacitence value? I don't know but it has to use a capacitor load of some kind. I would be interested in the measured value of each cap out and in circuit, full off, half way and full on. Duanes hearing something, might be worth investigation.
 

PaulD

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Jun 25, 2007
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578
Definitely just a cap in there... d!ck...

39409235_10216129941217857_2862012364620824576_n.jpg

FYI my name is Paul - not dick

Not sure what you are trying to prove here? You have connected an ohm meter that measures resistance across a capacitor and get no reading - this is as expected, try the same test with any capacitor and you will be likely to get the same result. If you were to connect it to a capacitance meter you would be able to read the capacitance value in microfarads.
 

duaneflowers

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FYI my name is Paul - not dick

Not sure what you are trying to prove here? You have connected an ohm meter that measures resistance across a capacitor and get no reading - this is as expected, try the same test with any capacitor and you will be likely to get the same result. If you were to connect it to a capacitance meter you would be able to read the capacitance value in microfarads.

Just seeing if you are as braindead as you act...

39390172_10216131795664217_3929975623656669184_n.jpg
 

duaneflowers

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I was a rabid paper in oil cap fanatic until I had an audio engineer/designer sit me down and educate me. No audio signal flows through a capacitor in a passive guitar circuit. The cap value sets the frequencies attenuated by sending to ground. I compared selected caps of all styles with exact identical measured values. All in my favorite guitar. I played, I recorded, I measured, analysed and scoped. Most importantly, I listend. I will admit I cannot tell the difference among equal value caps in passive guitar circuits.

I don't know what these are. New technology is everywhere and maybe these are some kind of multistage, reactive variable capacitor that uses a shifting more complex capacitence value? I don't know but it has to use a capacitor load of some kind. I would be interested in the measured value of each cap out and in circuit, full off, half way and full on. Duanes hearing something, might be worth investigation.

I will try to take some readings and see if we can figure out what's going on... :salude
 

LtKojak

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This thread is going great, so far.

I'm making some popcorn...
 
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PaulD

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Just seeing if you are as braindead as you act...

39390172_10216131795664217_3929975623656669184_n.jpg

And your point is? So it measures no reading on an ohmmeter and it measures 0.12 uF on a capacitance meter. That tells me that it is a 0.12 uF capacitor. What else could it possibly be?

P.S. Please stop referring to me as braindead, dick or any other such terms, I am none of these things and I am not insulting you or calling you names.
 

duaneflowers

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Please stop referring to me as braindead, dick or any other such terms, I am none of these things and I am not insulting you or calling you names.

Then perhaps you shouldn't've entered my thread with terms such as "audiofool" and "bovine excrement"... if you want me to stop calling you d!ck then you'll have to prove yourself otherwise, instead of telling me how new technology is not even remotely possible and should be scoffed at whenever it presents itself, just maybe you can put your 35 years of engineering experience towards trying to figure out how such new technology might be applied to a simple passive circuit to achieve results that a simple cap can't... if I didn't think it worthy of mention I wouldn't've bothered... :salude
 

PaulD

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Then perhaps you shouldn't've entered my thread with terms such as "audiofool" and "bovine excrement"... if you want me to stop calling you d!ck then you'll have to prove yourself otherwise, instead of telling me how new technology is not even remotely possible and should be scoffed at whenever it presents itself, just maybe you can put your 35 years of engineering experience towards trying to figure out how such new technology might be applied to a simple passive circuit to achieve results that a simple cap can't... if I didn't think it worthy of mention I wouldn't've bothered... :salude

My original comments were a light-hearted view of the marketing hype that goes with these things, as an engineer I always find this amusing as it has no basis in fact and is essentially "baffling people with bullshit". The comments were not aimed at you personally and if you thought they were I can only apologise for that.

Returning to the capacitor, the fact that you measured the value as 0.12uF is quite significant, the standard capacitor value in a Gibson is 0.022uF so if you replaced a standard capacitor with this it would fully explain why you can hear a difference, it is nothing to do with it being something other than a capacitor (which it is not), it is due to the difference in value which will change the cut-off frequency of the tone control. Replacing the original capacitor with any cheap 0.12uF capacitor would likely have exactly the same effect.
 
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PaulD

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Most likely just a chip in there... busting it open won't tell us much. Although it would be fun... pay for one and I'll do it!!! :spabout

Chips are generally active electronic devices that require a power source, there is no power source in your guitar, this is a passive component. Your readings with the ohm meter and the capacitance meter prove that it is a capacitor. The ohm meter indicated open circuit / infinate resistance, a capacitor blocks DC current while allowing AC to pass so will read as open circuit when tested for DC resistance with a multi-meter. Your capacitance meter read a value of 0.12uF indicating that the component has capacitance i.e it is a capacitor.
 

renderit

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10,086
Chips are generally active electronic devices that require a power source, there is no power source in your guitar, this is a passive component. Your readings with the ohm meter and the capacitance meter prove that it is a capacitor. The ohm meter indicated open circuit / infinate resistance, a capacitor blocks DC current while allowing AC to pass so will read as open circuit when tested for DC resistance with a multi-meter. Your capacitance meter read a value of 0.12uF indicating that the component has capacitance i.e it is a capacitor.

Well, THAT'S JUST NO FUN MISTER! I suspect it is a cap none the less.

Now I'm bummed out. I figured those crafty rascals had canned tone made from yeast and yeast by-products.

I HAVE been impressed by old caps though and have been collecting some. I have convinced myself I AM hearing a difference. Again, this might explain why Collings uses ceramic caps and Titebond. I am imagining the difference when I change them out. Wicked bummer way to start my weekend guys!

But....Maybe it's a HAND WOUND CAPACITOR LIKE THE LUXE GREY TIGERS THOUGH!

WICKED!
 

deytookerjaabs

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Devil's Advocate: Capacitors are a passive component yet they've been shown to exhibit funky things like microphonic effects and even electrical responses when physically stressed. A potentiometer is not exempt from bleed through and other basic analogue phenomenon. The entirety of a guitar's passive circuit is a magnet for all sorts of interference. Would you argue it's out of the realm of physics for a capacitor to have, albeit insanely subtle, properties which can effect a part of the signal beyond it's actual job on the schematic?
 

renderit

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Devil's Advocate: Capacitors are a passive component yet they've been shown to exhibit funky things like microphonic effects and even electrical responses when physically stressed. A potentiometer is not exempt from bleed through and other basic analogue phenomenon. The entirety of a guitar's passive circuit is a magnet for all sorts of interference. Would you argue it's out of the realm of physics for a capacitor to have, albeit insanely subtle, properties which can effect a part of the signal beyond it's actual job on the schematic?

I really happen to think it may be something like 'clamp time' with oil being microscopically slower or something. No proof, but bear in mind most (even high-end) measurement devices were made to measure 'something specific' not 'everything that might be there'. We 'measure' current flow.

I ask (because I am electrical zero mentally) what does the capacitor do? It STORES charge. What happens to the STORED charge? Well, supposedly the dielectric between the posts LEAKS. They also have a BREAKDOWN current. They also produce a difference based on alternating voltage supplied. Many things that (to my addled brain) might produce differences because of materials maybe some are attuned to and others not.

Just like eyesight, hearing can be different between people. Or at least our brains 'processing' of what we hear. Yanny anybody? Gold or Blue dress anybody?

The more 'science' I know the less I trust it...
 

PaulD

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Devil's Advocate: Capacitors are a passive component yet they've been shown to exhibit funky things like microphonic effects and even electrical responses when physically stressed. A potentiometer is not exempt from bleed through and other basic analogue phenomenon. The entirety of a guitar's passive circuit is a magnet for all sorts of interference. Would you argue it's out of the realm of physics for a capacitor to have, albeit insanely subtle, properties which can effect a part of the signal beyond it's actual job on the schematic?

Indeed, it is not just a possibility that a capacitor will have effects on the signal other than just capacitance, it is a certainty. All capacitors exhibit a property called ESR (equivalent series resistance) which means it will offer some resistance (or more correctly reactance) to an AC signal passing through it and it will also offer some inductance. The amount of reactance and inductance will vary dependant on the type of capacitor and so, yes, different capacitors will affect the signal flowing through it in different ways. BUT, and this is the crunch, as BigAl pointed out in a previous post the signal that comes out of the guitar does not pass through the capacitor, the only thing that passes through it is the higher frequencies that are being rolled off and dumped to ground when you turn the tone control down. You never hear the signal that goes through the capacitor, you only hear the signal that bypasses it.
 

zacknorton

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There’s a photo of the inside of these nue devices on their Instagram account


but it’s just an empty copper cylinder.
 

MeHereNow

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So a simple tubular ceramic capacitor using copper instead of silver as electrodes, right?
 

deytookerjaabs

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Indeed, it is not just a possibility that a capacitor will have effects on the signal other than just capacitance, it is a certainty. All capacitors exhibit a property called ESR (equivalent series resistance) which means it will offer some resistance (or more correctly reactance) to an AC signal passing through it and it will also offer some inductance. The amount of reactance and inductance will vary dependant on the type of capacitor and so, yes, different capacitors will affect the signal flowing through it in different ways. BUT, and this is the crunch, as BigAl pointed out in a previous post the signal that comes out of the guitar does not pass through the capacitor, the only thing that passes through it is the higher frequencies that are being rolled off and dumped to ground when you turn the tone control down. You never hear the signal that goes through the capacitor, you only hear the signal that bypasses it.



Sorry, I meant with the capacitor's job on the guitar being implied. Say, a guitar with ceramic capacitor exhibiting microphonics introducing a bit of distortion/interference to the signal when under conditions surrounded with a surplus of electrical equipment around the guitar (studio or small stage, etc). Would it be out of the realm of possibility to suggest there are signal effects of some sort in play?
 

PaulD

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Sorry, I meant with the capacitor's job on the guitar being implied. Say, a guitar with ceramic capacitor exhibiting microphonics introducing a bit of distortion/interference to the signal when under conditions surrounded with a surplus of electrical equipment around the guitar (studio or small stage, etc). Would it be out of the realm of possibility to suggest there are signal effects of some sort in play?

No not at all beyond the realm of possibility, indeed I have little doubt that there are effects of this nature in play but I can't believe that these would be anything other than very minor and certainly not the night and day difference that some people claim to be able to hear. A change in capacitance value however can have a significant noticeable effect on tone and this is much more likely to be the cause of the differences being heard rather than the type or make of the capacitor. All capacitors have a tolerance range (typically +/- 10%) so 2 capacitors that are nominally the same value could easily have values that are different enough to produce a noticeable difference in tone.
 

duaneflowers

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Black Cloud Guitars, a high-end guitar maker in Japan, has just subcontracted Ovaltone to make a customized Nue Device for their guitars...

42ccf3f5bb11c7ea7c44f68d1da7f26a463dce.jpg
 

LtKojak

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Black Cloud Guitars, a high-end guitar maker in Japan, has just subcontracted Ovaltone to make a customized Nue Device for their guitars
So, where can I read an english-written explanation about how these new tech "caps not-caps" work? As I don't speak japanese and you obviously do, can you being of assistence?

Inquiring minds would like to know. My interest's been piqued. ;)
 
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