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Pickups to shape the sound

wintomato

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Joined
Apr 9, 2019
Messages
43
Thanks for your comment Sol, and thanks to everyone else that has chipped in. I was hesitant at starting a thread that may seem like yet another pickup replacement thread. It's more about accepting what this chunk of wood sounds like, and trying to shape the sound with after market updates, such as pickups, bridge, wiring etc. I'm not yet convinced I can, but with a guitar like this, I am not giving up yet, it's perfect in every other way, just not the most important bit, the sound! El Gringo is right, the wood is the wood. Do light les Pauls always sound like this (subject of another thread)

I will be recording it, using the Ox I can do consistent recording across the different pickups, using more than just my SM57, which tend to pick up alot of mid range anyway (what I have recorded sounds good across both sets I have tried, and will only prove that I am 'complaining' about nothing). But, being an experienced player, long in the tooth, I know what it can sound like, and what this doesn't sound like, so will persist.
Thanks all for the comments. I will be speaking to a tech I know in central London, and also, once I've tried these BB Pros, Monty's and Bareknuckle are always very helpful.

Back to wiring, only from what I've read so far, this will improve clarity, not necessarily be the answer to my mid range issues? not wishing to turn this in to a conversation about wiring and pots.
An attempt to further describe what I am getting, clean, it sounds glorious, as soon as you push/crunch/distort, it all squeezes into the mid, no punch, or that wide open roar.

I'll stop now.
 

Sol

Active member
Joined
Oct 26, 2001
Messages
775
This is a bit of a long shot, but in your last sentence you described a glorious clean sound that as you push/crunch/distort, it all squeezes into the mid, with no punch or wide open roar. (paraphrased).

This amp is your your Fuchs ODS50 ?

Switching from clean to crunch/dist, your introducing another 12ax7 into the circuit I assume ? If that valve is a certain China made 12ax7' it has a reputation for pushing everything through a narrow midrange band when distorted. Its just a thought really, but thought it worth mentioning.
 

wintomato

Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2019
Messages
43
Thanks Sol, interesting idea. Whilst I have noticed a bit of this, I get the same sound response with an overdrive in front of the JTM45. I do need to investigate, as I had noticed something with the Fuchs with the Strat plugged in (off to the tech)
An Xotic BB in front of the JTM has been my base reference. I know how this sounded on gigs with my 2005 USA. but interesting idea all the same, but am starting to think it is just the sound of the guitar. Maybe I need to be playing it for 20+ years before the wood just starts opening up!
This morning, In a few spare moments, I started playing with the pickup height with the Monty in the bridge, which has alnico V, it may have opened things up a little, but won't know full effect til in a rehearsal space and push the volume. I also have bought some BB pros, which I need to put in. I had only really noticed the Monty's doing this when in a rehearsal at volume last week, before that I thought the Monty's had resolved my challenge.
With the pickup raised, I am possibly dialling the sound out a little.
More to follow, if I get time to experiment and record, but as mentioned, when recorded, the sound I am trying to dial out, actually records really well, as you'd expect I suppose.
 

JLee

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Joined
Nov 27, 2010
Messages
89
New wiring/higher value pots will only make the guitar brighter, clearer. Probably won’t have the effect you’re looking for with the midrange.
 

wintomato

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Joined
Apr 9, 2019
Messages
43
Thanks, that’s what I thought. I wonder what change the bridge would make? Possibly similar, clarity of sound (not that that is an/the issue)
I am thinking, after experimenting with pickups and height (not enough on pole pieces yet) I’ll be able to dial some of it out, but the sound of the guitar is the sound of the guitar, it seems.
Certainly hearing a difference with pickups and height adjustment, as you’d expect.
 

Sol

Active member
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Oct 26, 2001
Messages
775
This is a real chin stroker, that's for sure !

I still think that you might consider putting your Les Paul in the hands of an expert tech or luthier for a more independent assessment of your Les Paul. I see no downside to this approach.

You could, in the meantime take your guitar around the London guitar shops and spend some time just comparing your Les Paul to those in the shops. Do you think this could inform or add to your current understanding perhaps ?
 

CK6

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 5, 2020
Messages
449
Thanks, that’s what I thought. I wonder what change the bridge would make? Possibly similar, clarity of sound (not that that is an/the issue)
I am thinking, after experimenting with pickups and height (not enough on pole pieces yet) I’ll be able to dial some of it out, but the sound of the guitar is the sound of the guitar, it seems.
Certainly hearing a difference with pickups and height adjustment, as you’d expect.
You need a second opinion - a player with good ears that gets it. They’ll be able to confirm right away what the issue, if any, is.
 
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wintomato

Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2019
Messages
43
Thanks ck6, yes have that. They agreed, and noticed before I said anything. They also used to play with me when I had the USA.
he’s an old hand, big session dude from a while back, worldwide hits, big recording sessions, plays everything. (He let slip the other day he knew Danny Kustow, and chatted about his Les paul!) I can’t claim the same CV, but have played professionally, long time etc. We know what we’re hearing. And of course I realise how this sounds, maybe a bit like I’m trying to make my custom shop Les Paul sound like my 2005 USA! At most a 3rd of the price! But I did try a lot of other CS Les pauls before settling on this one. Whilst it didn’t have the sound, it def played the best of the lot!
once I’ve tried the bb pros, I’ll be speaking with a tech, see what else they think might have an effect, and contacting the helpful pickup makers.
im not really someone that likes to customise things, realise now that the custombuckers are great pickups, it’s the chunk of wood that’s giving the sound, so, back to my original question, can I tweak that sound with any upgrades/changes. Possibly not!
thanks all for reading!

ps - thanks again ck6. I don’t see it as an ‘issue’ with the guitar, although it is an issue for me. I’d be interested to know if others with a true historic near that serial number had the same experience, but that’s too complicated/impossible to line up!
 
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wintomato

Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2019
Messages
43
I put some Burstbucker Pros into it, sacrilege perhaps, although they sounded great in my old USA. I didn't expect to hear such a difference. With a clean sound, I could hear more punch and perhaps slightly compressed on picking the note. With some twiddling of the pickup height, I could get dial out the sound I had been getting, but perhaps true to the name of this guitar, it certainly keeps certainly quality in the mid range. Unless there's something else in the wiring.
It sounds great into the Marshall JTM45, each drive pedal I've tried, I have to have the drive at almost minimum, as it very quickly over distorts/compresses. Tweaked just right, it sounds classic.
I will continue looking into this, if the tech I know has some suggestions.
Thanks for the suggestions all, I will update this when I've tried something else. But the wood is the wood perhaps. Definitely not a bad sounding guitar, but not the sound I was expecting.
In the meantime, I managed to break the pickup selector knob! I don't imagine true historic plastics are easy to come by....
 

axeman565758

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Joined
Jan 23, 2007
Messages
1,204
Stop wasting time and money. Change out your pots and caps. Doesn't matter what p'ups you have!!
Problem fixed
 

wintomato

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Joined
Apr 9, 2019
Messages
43
Thanks! Maybe the only other place to go?Haven’t really wasted much money. BB Pros were quite cheap on eBay. Def wasn’t going to start throwing money into Throbak or others.

Won’t changing pots and caps just change clarity?
The pots in the TH are 300k? And possibly changing to 500k may address my issue.
 
Last edited:

Sol

Active member
Joined
Oct 26, 2001
Messages
775
This is a real chin stroker, that's for sure !

I still think that you might consider putting your Les Paul in the hands of an expert tech or luthier for a more independent assessment of your Les Paul. I see no downside to this approach.

You could, in the meantime take your guitar around the London guitar shops and spend some time just comparing your Les Paul to those in the shops. Do you think this could inform or add to your current understanding perhaps ?
wintomato, at the risk of irritating you, I hope you don't mind my repeating my previous response. As I said before, I see no downside to the above approach, with the potential of a fresh pair of ears and eyes who knows what may come to light, all the best.
 

wintomato

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Apr 9, 2019
Messages
43
Not a problem. No irritation at all. Very happy to receive supportive comments. And that is definitely the plan. Just asking for opinions. The last comment from axeman is worth investigating for sure. After some research, seems like the difference between 300k and 500k pots described could be a route to investigate. describing a guitar sound on a forum is the purest form of subjectivity!
it could be as simple as the pots.
 

El Gringo

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Apr 8, 2015
Messages
5,657
Thanks! Maybe the only other place to go?Haven’t really wasted much money. BB Pros were quite cheap on eBay. Def wasn’t going to start throwing money into Throbak or others.

Won’t changing pots and caps just change clarity?
The pots in the TH are 300k? And possibly changing to 500k may address my issue.
True Historic's along with Historic's come factory with 500k pots .
 

axeman565758

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Jan 23, 2007
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1,204
Not a problem. No irritation at all. Very happy to receive supportive comments. And that is definitely the plan. Just asking for opinions. The last comment from axeman is worth investigating for sure. After some research, seems like the difference between 300k and 500k pots described could be a route to investigate. describing a guitar sound on a forum is the purest form of subjectivity!
it could be as simple as the pots.
My 2020 60th R0 pots caps are fine. However, I did change both on my '18 R7 Goldtop. Like many others here, I use RS Guitarworks Vintage prewired kit with 500k audio taper pots and their own PIO caps. The change really opened up my tone and improved clarity immensely. But there are many aftermarket guys out there. I always say, the quickest/easiest and cheapest fix are the pots/caps. Of course there are a million different opinions. I can only speak for myself.
 

wintomato

Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2019
Messages
43
Stop wasting time and money. Change out your pots and caps. Doesn't matter what p'ups you have!!
Problem fixed
Thanks @axeman565758 it was as simple as that.
a lot of what I read about changing pots and caps people suggested theoretically it only really makes a change when you start dislling down volume and tone. But..
I changed the wiring loom for a Montys set, https://www.montysguitars.com/products/50s-wiring-loom-for-les-paul
a respected pickup maker in the Uk, great quality for a good price. i Already had a set of his paf retrowinds, and tried in a rehearsal, at volume. Nice wide open, all the things I was looking for.
thanks all for the comments and suggestions. The guitar sounded great stock, but now it is perfect.
 

axeman565758

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Joined
Jan 23, 2007
Messages
1,204
Thanks @axeman565758 it was as simple as that.
a lot of what I read about changing pots and caps people suggested theoretically it only really makes a change when you start dislling down volume and tone. But..
I changed the wiring loom for a Montys set, https://www.montysguitars.com/products/50s-wiring-loom-for-les-paul
a respected pickup maker in the Uk, great quality for a good price. i Already had a set of his paf retrowinds, and tried in a rehearsal, at volume. Nice wide open, all the things I was looking for.
thanks all for the comments and suggestions. The guitar sounded great stock, but now it is perfect.
excellent. I'm glad it worked out for you.!!
 

El Gringo

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Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
5,657
My 2020 60th R0 pots caps are fine. However, I did change both on my '18 R7 Goldtop. Like many others here, I use RS Guitarworks Vintage prewired kit with 500k audio taper pots and their own PIO caps. The change really opened up my tone and improved clarity immensely. But there are many aftermarket guys out there. I always say, the quickest/easiest and cheapest fix are the pots/caps. Of course there are a million different opinions. I can only speak for myself.
Wouldn't the wiring harness that Gibson Custom uses now with the PIO caps negate changing out the wiring harness ? Along with the 500k pots ? What I always replace is the pickups , as I feel they are to bland, weak , or "vanilla" . Then for me the true dynamics or personality of the instrument speak to me with the change (ThroBak)
 
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