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Playing with fire?

clayville

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To me, John McCain is a weary and ineffectual but well-meaning public servant caught in an unenviable position... one not of his making or of his choice, one concocted and goaded by the likes of Fox and Limbaugh to confuse, obscure, deflect and deceive... to demon-ize and negate anything the political opposition says, does or proposes as being "socialist", "arab", "not like us", "terrorist" and a host of other slights and slanders...

He has, from one side of his mouth at least, attempted to reign in some of these over-blown manifestations of frustration... but...

I'm compelled to say that I'm deeply concerned by the fear, hate, and falsity that "informs" some of the folks that vent their frustration at his rallies -- if the bitterness and anger, the hostility and hatred, the tenor of the advertising or the accusations and insinuations of his VP are to be taken at face value then he has lost all control, all honor and standing for the highest office in the land.

McCain is of course not responsible for all of the hostility that some feel in these very trying times. Obama is not above criticism, none of us are -- on character, or on policy proposals. But damnit: b.s. is b.s. Democrats like me have been over all this stuff for months and months -- I understand that Ayers or Wright or Acorn or any other "association" might need to be defended again for those who haven't been paying attention, and I understand too that politically this stuff is a handy blunt instrument when few are available. But some people seem to take seriously the more outlandish, false and offensive charges.

Some of that is sadly just politics as we've come to know it of course, but today I say John Lewis is right on the merits, if not the target, of his recently voiced concerns -- some on the Right are playing with fire. There is indeed a "George Wallace"-style strain of anger and outrage animating some of the electorate -- maybe not so much the racism, but the hatred is real. And it's elevating to a dangerous level.

This nation, in my lifetime, has seen where this hatred leads -- to divisive and ineffectual politics, to social unrest, to a breakdown in the civil and social contract that binds us as a people with common cause. And yes: to assassination. JFK, MLK, RFK, the "only wounded" Wallace himself and RR -- and that's just this country, in the last 50 years. One can't blame the victims for the outcome here, or their oppositional politicians either necessarily -- and I don't mean to. I do mean to point out that people robbed of all hope and with nothing left but fear, anger and confusion are sometimes driven to desperation.

Sometimes they're driven of their own accord. But this time around, I know who is driving. The shit thrown at McCain at his recent rallies comes right out of the mouths of Fox and Limbaugh. I know because I listen and watch what they say in an effort to understand these views that make so little sense to me. They seem to make little sense to McCain either, on a personal level... yet there they are. And he "approves this message" much of the time. Like I said: he's in an unenviable position.


Anyway, I have an uneasy feeling about where we'll be as a nation in three weeks -- I think the right man for the job at this time will win, but I'm fearful about those who will feel left behind. And where that might lead us all.

Not that you asked. :)
 

kink56

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I think you have many valid points. But, there are some real reasons for concern about Obama. Not the least of which is associating with left wing extremist, voter fraud, and a shady history. The hate and frustration is happening because some of us really do NOT want Obama for president, and truly believe in McCain. It is unfortunate that the campaign has take such a low road. Even if ALL of what is suggested is true, it really does no good to concentrate on these things with someone who has such charisma. People are more interested in HOW things are said, rather that WHAT things are said. We like shit wrapped in a bow.
 

kink56

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If you sound nasty, the truth is not well accepted. But you can smile and get away with the most bald-faced lies.
 

DEVILBAT

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These are very, very angry people. They see their power drifting away and they feel helpless. They realize that their time has come and gone, and it was a complete and utter failure.
Sad.
 

kink56

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First Rush did all he could to prevent McCain from winning the nomination. And even after he won, gave him a hard time for not falling in line with his extreme right wing ideas. Now, he is managing to cause hate mongering and fucking up the McCain campagn, much like McCain's campagn managment is doing. I am disappointed with McCain, that he LISTENS to his managment. He should be himself, and do what is right! That is the McCain we expect.
 

clayville

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These are very, very angry people. They see their power drifting away and they feel helpless. They realize that their time has come and gone, and it was a complete and utter failure.
Sad.
I'm probably just parsing here... but the kinds of folks that scare me most are the ones shouting, essentially, "But you promised!!" at the party leaders who sold them trickle-down economics. The ones who see their chance slipping away, but were never let it on the power that accrued from their faith and votes.
 

DEVILBAT

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I'm probably just parsing here... but the kinds of folks that scare me most are the ones shouting, essentially, "But you promised!!" at the party leaders who sold them trickle-down economics. The ones who see their chance slipping away, but were never let it on the power that accrued from their faith and votes.

No. The people who scare me the most are the folks at the McCain/Palin rallies yelling "Kill him" when Senator Obama's name is mentioned.

These are very angry, desperate and dangerous people who can't handle change or a difference of opinion from their own. Their party has sold them out. Their hero Bush turned out to be a big
government, deficit spending, illegal immigrant loving socialist and the republican brand is damaged. And Senator McCain supported Bush over 90% of the time.
Sad, really.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/11/us/politics/11campaign.html?em

I will be attending the rally in Scranton, Pa. tomorrow to hear both the Clintons and Joe Biden speak.
I don't expect to hear any Democrats yell "Kill Him" or "off with his head" when Senator McCain's name is mentioned.
 
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Frank C

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Jan 12, 2007
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i would honestly be surprised if there isn't an attempt on Obamas life in his first year in office..this 2 party thing has gotten soo childish its insane,even here on a guitar forum its nutty..both sides have been talking some hatefull shit and people are listening and now were seeing the fruits of their labor.

emotions and passions are running high in this election. well higher than i have ever seen in my 47 yrs, and when you mix those two together..well we all know what can happen.

I would love to hear, just once one side say "hey they had a great idea,he/she deserves a lot of credit for that! good job!"

but i cannot hear that coming from either party's side. i stay independent because i dont care if your Dem/Rep black white green red blue or what ever!..if i think you have me and country in your best interest you get my vote.

so getting back on track, yes Clay i agree, BOTH sides have been playing with fire for a long time and i think alot of the shit this countries in right now is because of BOTH party's, neither Dem or Rep is clean in this mess...lack of communication is killing this country and until some people start reaching across the isle and i mean seriously reaching its only going to get worst

sorry for the rant..here have a pumkin..:pwink
 

CharlieS

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Dec 12, 2002
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You've totally missed the mark. People are angry because they don't want a socialist government, and Obama will bring a socialist agenda. They also don't want a guy who equates Russia's invasion of Georgia with the US war in Iraq.

They especially don't like that the networks and AP have been running hit piece after hit piece on McCain/Palin and are giving Obama/Biden a pass on everything from their shady and radical allies to the foreign money flowing into the campaign coffers, as well as Obama's ties to ACORN, Code Pink, and other leftist America haters.

If you watched the RNC, you would have seen loads of Code Pink activists creating problems, crashing the convention, etc.

There is a huge segment of the population who doesn't like the leftward drift of this nation and the fact that it is not being covered in an even-handed matter. Hillary expressed similar frustration during the primaries about the press corps' love affair with Obama.
 

lpnv59

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There is a lunatic fringe on both sides. There is a little too much "spirit" going on with extreme non-thinkers. Try to choose to NOT be afraid. I think you'll find that they'll disappear after the election. Just like those shirtless, facepainted hyperactive football fans do after a Superbowl.

I went for ride yesterday with a friend of mine. We took our motorcycles because the weather was great and the fall is a great time to cruise around. While waiting at a light in a small NH town, an old Lincoln Town Car, hand painted bright yellow went thru. It had a roof rack holding a sign with multiple pics John McCains face, that was the full length of the car. The light changed and we found ourselves next to them a few miles down the road at another light and the pics were then morphed into George W Bushs image. The sign was made to flip/flop back and forth from McCain to Bush depending on the angle. It was quite funny. Espescially when you saw what the folks in the car looked like. The tags were from Vermont BTW.
 
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kink56

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You've totally missed the mark. People are angry because they don't want a socialist government, and Obama will bring a socialist agenda. They also don't want a guy who equates Russia's invasion of Georgia with the US war in Iraq.

They especially don't like that the networks and AP have been running hit piece after hit piece on McCain/Palin and are giving Obama/Biden a pass on everything from their shady and radical allies to the foreign money flowing into the campaign coffers, as well as Obama's ties to ACORN, Code Pink, and other leftist America haters.

If you watched the RNC, you would have seen loads of Code Pink activists creating problems, crashing the convention, etc.

There is a huge segment of the population who doesn't like the leftward drift of this nation and the fact that it is not being covered in an even-handed matter. Hillary expressed similar frustration during the primaries about the press corps' love affair with Obama.

I agree with YOU! The anger and fear will slowly become justified if he is elected. He will surround himself with some of those people in his cabinet too.
 

juniorspecial

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You've totally missed the mark. People are angry because they don't want a socialist government, and Obama will bring a socialist agenda.


Have you been reading the news lately? Bush, Paulsen and Bernanke begged Congress--on TV!-- for authority to spend nearly $1 trillion to bail out the failing financial system! Bush and Paulsen are going to spend government money to buy stock in banks. Even the right-wingers are turning socialist! We're going to have to spend enormous piles of government money to keep private enterprise from failing and completely locking up.

The plain facts are that capitalism is going through one of its periodic meltdowns. We're probably going to have to have a period of soft socialism in this country, like we did in the 1930s, just to keep people from starving. People with strong right-wing ideologies may not want a Socialist government, but there isn't much they can do in the face of the facts right now. Their right wing ideology has failed the moment, and without quick action on the part of government to protect capitalist institutions, the whole deal could go up in flames.

Get with it! There's no time to discuss ideology on a sinking ship!
 

DEVILBAT

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You're fear of "socialism" is moot and, quite frankly, ridiculous. President Bush has given us 8 years of big government, big spending right wing "socialism" for 8 years. You "socialist" buzzword doesn't work anymore.

Afraid of the left? Tough.
We've had 8 years of the right running this country and look what they have given us.

I really don't care if you are angry. This is America. We have a two party system. The republicans seem to think that they are entitled to run the government and the country.
Now all is see is bitching and moaning by your party. Stop crying and tough it out.
Want to win the election? It's easy. Nominate real conservatives (like Ron Paul) who have a true sense of conservatism and understand it's fundamental ethos. Stop electing extreme right wing neo con hacks that have given us nothing but big government, deficit spending and war. Give us a candidate who will not march in line with the failed policies of Bush and Cheney instead of a guy who voted with these clowns over 90% of the time.

So, people are afraid of the Democrats and that's why they are angry? Again, tough. This is still America and we still have a two party system. Republicans are not entitled to power.
Your republican revolution is over. Your party blew it. And if Senator Obama gets elected, you can thank two people: George Bush and Dick Cheney. It's their failed policies and their extreme, failed right wing neocon agenda that has people looking towards the Democrats.
My advice? Get over your fear of "socialism." We've got it already. It's just a talk radio buzzword that always gets you right wingers up in arms. And stop blaming the media for your problems. Man up and finally take some responibility for the failures and the ineptness of your party. Stop crying in your beer about "the media" and "socialism". Stop giving tax breaks to the rich during a freaking war. Keep your religion to yourself and out of my face. Stop kowtowing to the corporate interests instead of the interests of the average Joe. Come up with some real ideas for this country. I'll listen.
And, btw, this Palin woman just isn't cutting it. More extremism from someone to the right of Dick Cheney.
But your anger and complaining, quite frankly, is boring. Get over it. For a bunch of folks who claim to be against entitlements, it's time to face the fact that your party is not "entitled" to election.
Now I'm off to Scranton to see Bill, Hillary and Senator Biden along with 25,000 other America haters. I expect to see nothing but happy faces there, full of hope for our country, as opposed to the angry folks of the GOP.

Get over your feelings of anger, fear and entitlement.
 
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Joe Ganzler

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Have you been reading the news lately? Bush, Paulsen and Bernanke begged Congress--on TV!-- for authority to spend nearly $1 trillion to bail out the failing financial system! Bush and Paulsen are going to spend government money to buy stock in banks. Even the right-wingers are turning socialist! We're going to have to spend enormous piles of government money to keep private enterprise from failing and completely locking up.

The plain facts are that capitalism is going through one of its periodic meltdowns. We're probably going to have to have a period of soft socialism in this country, like we did in the 1930s, just to keep people from starving. People with strong right-wing ideologies may not want a Socialist government, but there isn't much they can do in the face of the facts right now. Their right wing ideology has failed the moment, and without quick action on the part of government to protect capitalist institutions, the whole deal could go up in flames.

Get with it! There's no time to discuss ideology on a sinking ship!

VERY well-said!:3zone
 

kink56

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There is a difference between using some social programs and tools temporarily, than to give the country up to people with a socialist aggenda.
 

clayville

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Labeling Democrats as "Socialists" holds no more water for me than labeling Republicans as "Fascists".

The extreme polarity of political argument over the last few decades has cut the middle, the heart of the nation's essential moderation, out of the equation to the detriment of us all. To me, that's why the "middle" and the "undecideds" seem so illusive and unresponsive to the tactics of ridicule and innuendo. It's time for a corrective to that trend, and the majority of the American people sense that.

Talk of "shady radical allies", "foreign money", "ties to ACORN" and "other leftist America haters" is part of the problem, not part of the solution.
 

kink56

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Not all Democrats are socialists!! SOME are. Obama and his cronies are.
 

lpnv59

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Labeling Democrats as "Socialists" holds no more water for me than labeling Republicans as "Fascists".

Talk of "shady radical allies", "foreign money", "ties to ACORN" and "other leftist America haters" is part of the problem, not part of the solution.


There are socialists amongst the Democrats. Conversely, there are Fascists amongs the GOP. I never heard any rational thinking person ever call McCain a Fascist. Yet there are many outspoken Democrats here, telling me that BHO's socialism is just what we need.

Those issues mentioned above and others, really are a huge problem and they need to be considered. That laundry list speaks volumes of his true self.
 

BurstMeUp

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I've said it before and I'll say it again ...

Republican is the code word for "repression" - the "We know what's good for you" party!

Republicans can't stand being "free" and want to be led around by the nose, but mostly hate it when others make choices in life they don't agree with or that go against christian doctrine.

Why else do the repressionists listen AND BELIEVE all those talk-radio douche bags like Limbaugh and Hannity?? Because it's easier to listen to unqualified and under-educated schmucks and be led around like lemmings. Why bother thinking for yourself?

WANT PROOF??? Look at all the big issues from the last election. Why aren't we hearing about all the bullshit christian social issues like abortion, stem cell research, prayer in school, creationism, private school vouchers, same sex marrriage, etc., etc???

Because the Republican mantra is "Cash before ANYTHING!", so if they piss off the "undecided voters" with their christian bullshit, they will SURELY LOSE THIS ELECTION!! ... It's also why we're not hearing from those nut cases at the NRA too.

"GREED" It's why after 8 years, there is still NO affordable health care! "GREED" It's why China and other countries own over 30% of the U.S. "GREED" It's why the word "environment" is not in a Republican's dictionary! "GREED" It's why the oil companies receive huge tax breaks while making billions in profit. "GREED" It's why the Bush and the other Repulican scumbags lied to get us into Iraq.

The Republicans chose a lying, cheating, ignorant, arrogant maggot like Bush, and they want us to believe McCain won't follow the same policies?

What will be different??

McCain may be honest, but he's just as dumb and narrow-minded. And who the hell wants that moronic clown to be vice-president?

Republicans seem to feel it's their duty to scrape the bottom of the intellectual barrel for candidates.

Can you just imagine if it was Joe Biden's daughter was unwed and pregnant -again!! Every 2-faced Republican would be screaming "Whore!" and "See what Democratic values are?" Maybe if sex education was not voted down everytime by the repressionist - I mean Republicans everytime, Pallin's daughter might know something about not fucking at 15, or at least know what a condom was!

This country will NEVER go back to the "Leave It To Beaver" days of the 1950's, and the Republicans just can't face it!!

Let us also not forget that ALL this rancor started after another lying, cheating, Republican criminal named Richard Nixon hired some other criminals and was pardoned by that other Republican intellectual giant Gerald Ford. They say it "healed the nation" ... BULLSHIT! He should have been put in jail! ... Bush too!

Say what you want about Carter and Clinton, but they NEVER fucked over the country like the last 4 repressionist republican presidents. YOUR TRACK RECORD SUCKS!!
 

CharlieS

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BMU, you've done a good job of illustrating the type of hatred that is emanating from the left--particularly if the subject of God comes up.
 
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