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Questions on Vintage Gibsons and Vintage Epiphones answered by Mat Koehler

Frutiger

Active member
Joined
Oct 17, 2007
Messages
748
Got another question for you Mat!

This is prompted by a post S.Weiger made on the 'Custom 69 Almost Inbound' thread about the pickups in 68 Customs and when T-tops started.

From what I can gather/have seen the T-top pickup appears around late 1965 with chrome covers but for gold pickups it seems to be much, much later. I used to own a '67 ES-345 that had PAF spec patent number pickups - short magnets, butyrate bobbins, purple wire, double black output leads, Phillips screws, sharp feet corners, the lot! They were completely original to the guitar. I've seen quite a few other late 60s ES guitars that had purple wire and black/white output leads. The 68 Customs I've seen tend to have pre-T-tops with orange wire and black/white output leads.

My question is, is there a definitive year the gold T-top appears? I'm guessing around late 69/early70 but does that sound too late? And is there a crossover with pre-T-tops?
 

matkoehler

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 12, 2014
Messages
546
Got another question for you Mat!

This is prompted by a post S.Weiger made on the 'Custom 69 Almost Inbound' thread about the pickups in 68 Customs and when T-tops started.

From what I can gather/have seen the T-top pickup appears around late 1965 with chrome covers but for gold pickups it seems to be much, much later. I used to own a '67 ES-345 that had PAF spec patent number pickups - short magnets, butyrate bobbins, purple wire, double black output leads, Phillips screws, sharp feet corners, the lot! They were completely original to the guitar. I've seen quite a few other late 60s ES guitars that had purple wire and black/white output leads. The 68 Customs I've seen tend to have pre-T-tops with orange wire and black/white output leads.

My question is, is there a definitive year the gold T-top appears? I'm guessing around late 69/early70 but does that sound too late? And is there a crossover with pre-T-tops?
Yes that all sounds right, and as we know the factory moved through gold plated components much slower. I've seen at least one 1965 Gibson with a stock gold-covered PAF, for instance.

But because it was a matter of using up inventory, there would not be a formal production change date (and we have all those records for the 1960s btw :)). I'm sure there was some overlap as well. Your guess is as good as mine!
 

S. Weiger

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Messages
1,968
Personal question for you Mat: How do you find the time to answer our questions/queries? -Many very good questions, and some very nerdy (I know mine is 😁 ).
And a bonus question: Sometimes on the 50's rubberstamped serial numbers, there is a "1" instead of a blank space (in 1959 both "2" and even "3") but it appears kind of not-so-logic as to when this was applied? Is there a rule as to when it occured?
 

friday

Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2024
Messages
41
Hi Mat, construction question. The Gibson LP alone is a beautiful design, shape and construction. I have only recently taken a closer look at neck damage images online which typically rely on the wood grain of maybe less than 2 square inches minus the truss rod cavity area. The cross section has way less area.

Has there been research into strengthening the Gibson neck, headstock area?

(alternative to "Volute")

This is an online image of Gibson neck as example to show the grain only
gibson neck.webp
 
Last edited:

matkoehler

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 12, 2014
Messages
546
Personal question for you Mat: How do you find the time to answer our questions/queries? -Many very good questions, and some very nerdy (I know mine is 😁 ).
And a bonus question: Sometimes on the 50's rubberstamped serial numbers, there is a "1" instead of a blank space (in 1959 both "2" and even "3") but it appears kind of not-so-logic as to when this was applied? Is there a rule as to when it occured?
I took my sweet time answering this one! Ha.

Very simple answer to your question -- volumes of ink-stamp-serialized products sometimes pushed the numbering past five digits. So if you see six digits, you can assume it was shipped later in the year or early the following year.
 

matkoehler

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 12, 2014
Messages
546
Hi Mat, construction question. The Gibson LP alone is a beautiful design, shape and construction. I have only recently taken a closer look at neck damage images online which typically rely on the wood grain of maybe less than 2 square inches minus the truss rod cavity area. The cross section has way less area.

Has there been research into strengthening the Gibson neck, headstock area?

(alternative to "Volute")

This is an online image of Gibson neck as example to show the grain only
View attachment 27012
Not sure what or when that image is from but there have been many different eras of headstock angles and grain alignment and volutes and whatnot. If you wanna start in the 'Golden Era' period of the late 50s and early 60s, a 17-degree headstock angle was used and the original rationale was that it created more string tension for sustain and a better break angle over the nut for tuning stability and clarity. Later in the 60s, a 14-degree headstock was adopted. In 1970, a volute was added. None of these changes reduced shipping damage rates. What helped eventually was better cases...Protector Cases for Les Pauls, notably.

In terms of research into strengthening, yes, plenty has been conducted over the decades and to this day. Most recently, legendary Gibson luthier Matt Klein developed the Apex headstock which debuted in 2017 as a way to naturally reinforce that joint with a spine. Very effective. But not well accepted by our audience at all, which is why it only lives within the Custom Shop Modern Collection today.


1724798140545.png
I have lots of personal opinions on the subject but I think it's best to keep it to the facts, this being a vintage Q&A thread. :)
 

jb_abides

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
6,432
FWIW, I've always liked the Apex and hope to order an Axcess M2M one day.

Let's not get into the snakehead though...
 

fernieite

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 3, 2010
Messages
635
Hi Mat. Could you please clear something up? Do you know what year Jimmy Page's first EDS-1275 was made?

Gibson reissued it in 2007 and called it a '71, i believe.
The MET museum called it a '71, as well.
Jimmy Page's gear book lists it as a '68.
And Gibson has just released 50 replicas in 2024, but call it a '69.

I imagine the 2024 listing it as a '69 is correct, right? We're you guys able to check any records to verify? You also had it in hand and were able to see the serial number and pots, I imagine?
Shipping ledgers, too...

Thanks man!
 
Last edited:

matkoehler

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 12, 2014
Messages
546
Hi Mat. Could you please clear something up? Do you know what year Jimmy Page's first EDS-1275 was made?

Gibson reissued it in 2007 and called it a '71, i believe.
The MET museum called it a '71, as well.
Jimmy Page's gear book lists it as a '68.
And Gibson has just released 50 replicas in 2024, but call it a '69.

I imagine the 2024 listing it as a '69 is correct, right? We're you guys able to check any records to verify? You also had it in hand and were able to see the serial number and pots, I imagine?
Shipping ledgers, too...

Thanks man!
Yes, should be somewhat easy to clear up. The guitar was serialized in 1969 and probably sat on a rack in its whitewood state waiting for an order, since they would have been custom order only at that time. Jimmy ordered it in 1970 and it arrived to him in very early 1971. He first used it live in March of 1971. It made the most sense for us to call it a 1969 as the doublenecks made after that year would have volutes and revised body contours. His is definitely more 1960s in terms of spec anyway.
 

fernieite

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 3, 2010
Messages
635
Yes, should be somewhat easy to clear up. The guitar was serialized in 1969 and probably sat on a rack in its whitewood state waiting for an order, since they would have been custom order only at that time. Jimmy ordered it in 1970 and it arrived to him in very early 1971. He first used it live in March of 1971. It made the most sense for us to call it a 1969 as the doublenecks made after that year would have volutes and revised body contours. His is definitely more 1960s in terms of spec anyway.
Thank you, sir! I appreciate it. 👍
 

deytookerjaabs

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 6, 2016
Messages
1,602
I got a question regarding an adjacent discussion elsewhere...

I read on here from a user that Memphis spec'd the original Freddie King '60 ES-345 in hand for the recreation. Is this true, as in does a collector or family still own the guitar such that it was loaned to Gibson for the build?
 

mdubya

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
1,073
When did the reverse Firebird body shape change and why?

It seems as though it started with the Bicentennial models (1976) and continues to this day for regular production USA models. (The upper bout by the neck pickup slopes more, is less upright than original Firebirds).

Funny, the recent Epiphone models are more historically correct in that aspect than USA models.

I am curious. Thank you.
 

matkoehler

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 12, 2014
Messages
546
I got a question regarding an adjacent discussion elsewhere...

I read on here from a user that Memphis spec'd the original Freddie King '60 ES-345 in hand for the recreation. Is this true, as in does a collector or family still own the guitar such that it was loaned to Gibson for the build?
No, that was not the case. I didn't work on that project but I know the Memphis team worked with the King family and they did not have an original guitar to reference. I seem to remember that there was some discussion of a neck that was accidentally broken by one of his young children, but that could have been the Goldtop.
 

matkoehler

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 12, 2014
Messages
546
When did the reverse Firebird body shape change and why?

It seems as though it started with the Bicentennial models (1976) and continues to this day for regular production USA models. (The upper bout by the neck pickup slopes more, is less upright than original Firebirds).

Funny, the recent Epiphone models are more historically correct in that aspect than USA models.

I am curious. Thank you.
I've speculated elsewhere on the forum as to the reasons for shape migration over the years but if you ask an old-timer here, they'll tell you that "historically correct" has never really been a target outside of historic reissues. I just don't think a ton of thought went into that stuff, so changes could be influenced by any number of things. I'm sure some conscious choices have been made in the interest of evolving the line as well...a la Rolex's case changes over the years, intentional updates to the form factors. But the fact is there are a lot of moving parts alongside 130 years of production history so migration is inevitable, sometimes unpredictable, and not always a top priority in life cycle management. Hopefully that makes sense!
 
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