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The one that got away

Seoighs

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First of all, it's pure speculation as to what GC paid for it as the information being passed is rank hearsay on the part of Clay. Moreover, did anyone mention what the value the added parting gifts were to the seller?

There have been many threads here that indicated what a clean, okay, player, 3 legged dog burst have sold for that were done in a way that didn't compromise anyone....those are the public service ones, not this one that was done out of spite.

'Pure speculation'? What GC paid was a direct quote from Clay's dialogue with the Seller. I believe the 160k quote, simply because Clay has no further axe to grind. Also, I'd assess the 'extra candy' in the form of the basses and amp which GC threw in at no more than $5k, since Seller was interested in financing his daughter's college, and I doubt he'd take too much of an in-kind payment.

Methinks thou dost protest too much, Jim...it's nice for us mere mortals to have the facts illuminated on one of these deals, despite the angst that may pose for some whose interests rest with (the myth of?) an escalating burst price spiral. If I had one for sale, I guess I wouldn't be looking to move it just now...specially after reading this thread...though I've got TWO kids in college...hmmm :hmm...what's a 65 Fender Mustang bass worth?

Peace
 
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bigjimsguitars

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Not if you're at the Richmond GC!!! :lol


But yes I know... still the guitar hangs at the GC. :hee

For the record Jim I dig your insights and contribution to the forum as well as the emails I've traded with you. Thanks. That being said I have had no direct contact with The "Burst" Brothers. Only contact with GC and their vast network of vintage gurus...... kidding.....


Oh and I HAVE bought 2 vintage guitars from GC. A 63 mint Strat and a 64 SG. The SG was a steal and the Strat was top dollar.....

Bryan

Bryan:

I too have had fun trading emails with you and you have some good things to say and share here as well.
 

cfh

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Actually I am not mad at GC for buying the guitar. I'm not sure how people jumped to that conclusion. I *am* however mad at the seller. I thought we had an agreement. he wanted some price points, to make sure he was selling at a fair price to him. I had no problem with that. I gave him general guidelines on what I would pay, and that I would beat his best offer. I thought we were all good on that and ready to go.

Now i *am* mad at GC for other things, none that have to do with this guitar. Yea those drew and dave guys sure are great. So i guess it's Ok to "cut and paste" my vintage guitar website word-for-word, and put it on guitarcenter.com. (I mean they didn't so much as change a word. It would have been no big deal if they had cut&paste the serial numbers for example, but no, they took it ALL, including my idiotic ramblings and opinions. Dave/drew did later call and apologize after it was removed from their site.) Now did they do the cut&paste? probably not. But they oversee the vintage department of GC, so the responsiblitiy ultimately falls on them, and that info got their approval. Why they thought this as "OK" is beyond me. And it did take quite a bit of leg work on my part to get that removed from their website.

And i guess it's a "good guy" when I make a deal with a Texas GC to buy a banner-logo J-45, and the salesman has to "Ok the deal with hollywood", and those wonderful dave and drew guys nix the deal. (this by the way happened at the same time my lawyer was threatening GC for copyright violation, and dave and drew KNEW they were wrong, but refused to allow the texas GC guitar sale to me.) And then after all that, I came to find out that the salesguy of the texas GC was fired for trying to sell me the guitar. (I had bought another vintage guitar from him in the past, and to him I was a "good buyer" as I paid quickly and didn't complain or try to return things or nit-pick.)

So yea, those dave and drew guys, they be real standup individuals, sure they are. But that had no bearing on this les paul deal. And when they bought this les paul, did they call me and offer it to me? (They *knew* it was me they were nixing on this deal, as the owner told them. drew/dave responded to him that i was an "OK guy". hmmm.) Maybe that's a bit of stretch to think they should call me and offer the guitar to me at a markup. But it would have been nice. (Ok, so i'm a dreamer.)
 
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bigjimsguitars

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Actually I am not mad at GC for buying the guitar. I'm not sure how people jumped to that conclusion. I *am* however mad at the seller. I thought we had an agreement. he wanted some price points, to make sure he was selling at a fair price to him. I had no problem with that. I gave him general guidelines on what I would pay, and that I would beat his best offer. I thought we were all good on that and ready to go.

Now i *am* mad at GC for other things, none that have to do with this guitar. Yea those drew and dave guys sure are great. So i guess it's Ok to "cut and paste" my vintage guitar website word-for-word, and put it on guitarcenter.com. (I mean they didn't so much as change a word. It would have been no big deal if they had cut&paste the serial numbers for example, but no, they took it ALL, including my idiotic ramblings and opinions. Dave/drew did later call and apologize after it was removed from their site.) Now did they do the cut&paste? probably not. But they oversee the vintage department of GC, so the reasonsiblitiy ultimately falls on them, and that info got their approval. Why they thought this as "OK" is beyond me. And it did take quite a bit of leg work on my part to get that removed from their website.

And i guess it's a "good guy" when I make a deal with a Texas GC to buy a banner-logo J-45, and the salesman has to "Ok the deal with hollywood", and those wonderful dave and drew guys nix the deal. (this by the way happened at the same time my lawyer was threatening GC for copyright violation, and dave and drew KNEW they were wrong, but refused to allow the texas GC guitar sale to me.) And then after all that, I came to find out that the salesguy of the texas GC was fired for trying to sell me the guitar. (I had bought another vintage guitar from him in the past, and to him I was a "good buyer" as I paid quickly and didn't complain or try to return things or nit-pick.)

So yea, those dave and drew guys, they be real standup individuals, sure they are. But that had no bearing on this les paul deal. And when they bought this les paul, did they call me and offer it to me? (They *knew* it was me they were nixing on this deal, as the owner told them. drew/dave responded to him that i was an "OK guy". hmmm.) Maybe that's a bit of stretch to think they should call me and offer the guitar to me at a markup. But it would have been nice. (Ok, so i'm a dreamer.)

Yeah, there's not a single bit of hostility towards GC on your part and none of this is about them. Clay, I personally don't know you (and you are probably a great guy), but why in the world would you bring all of this on yourself by starting this thread? It's too obvious what it really was about, and it wasn't about you losing out on a burst.

Two wrongs have never made something right. In other words, life is too short!
 

Joe Ganzler

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The whole "World of Buying/Selling Bursts" can be very mercenary - frankly, I would not EVEN consider buying one without being "in person", or having SOMEONE on-site through the entire transaction. Time is ALWAYS of the essence, as is making the transaction as seamless and EFFORTLESS for the seller. It seem that no matter HOW "confidential" a deal is, and how "secret" the guitar/seller are, at least ONE other "big boy" learns of the guitar/transaction. Hell, I was flying to Nebraska 5 months ago to ferret out a one-owner under-the-bed '59 - TWO DAYS after it came up for air - and I get a call from "one of 'em" asking about the details! I think I'm gonna have to start making my flight reservations under an alias...:lol
 

53Goldtop

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The whole "World of Buying/Selling Bursts" can be very mercenary - frankly, I would not EVEN consider buying one without being "in person", or having SOMEONE on-site through the entire transaction. Time is ALWAYS of the essence, as is making the transaction as seamless and EFFORTLESS for the seller. It seem that no matter HOW "confidential" a deal is, and how "secret" the guitar/seller are, at least ONE other "big boy" learns of the guitar/transaction. Hell, I was flying to Nebraska 5 months ago to ferret out a one-owner under-the-bed '59 - TWO DAYS after it came up for air - and I get a call from "one of 'em" asking about the details! I think I'm gonna have to start making my flight reservations under an alias...:lol

Tell me about it. I walked into a pawnshop where I have bought some very nice high-end guitars and the owner said someone walked in and said "I want deals like (insert my name her) gets"! - implying he knew/knows what I paid. We had a laugh about that.
 
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cfh

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The whole "World of Buying/Selling Bursts" can be very mercenary - frankly, I would not EVEN consider buying one without being "in person", or having SOMEONE on-site through the entire transaction. Time is ALWAYS of the essence, as is making the transaction as seamless and EFFORTLESS for the seller. It seem that no matter HOW "confidential" a deal is, and how "secret" the guitar/seller are, at least ONE other "big boy" learns of the guitar/transaction. Hell, I was flying to Nebraska 5 months ago to ferret out a one-owner under-the-bed '59 - TWO DAYS after it came up for air - and I get a call from "one of 'em" asking about the details! I think I'm gonna have to start making my flight reservations under an alias...:lol

I'm down with that. next time i hear of one in CA i'm calling the JG burst relocation and allocation and denomination and nofrustration services, inc.
 
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DucRyder

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Not true...you can only look at their total expenditures, profits, etc on a macro scale, not micro...I would love to see the micro accounting...it would be a whopper.
.

Point taken. You do get my point don't you? My point was that Guitar Center is an 1.8 BILLION dollar company. It's publicly traded. That means that you I or anyone in the world can become a part owner. it's not an individual. Also, at auctions like Christies the prices for 'bursts that individuals buy are public knowledge. My points were that GC isn't an indiviual so who cares? and even if it was an individual, sometimes those are public knowledge as well.:2zone
 

mingus

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'Pure speculation'? What GC paid was a direct quote from Clay's dialogue with the Seller. I believe the 160k quote, simply because Clay has no further axe to grind. Also, I'd assess the 'extra candy' in the form of the basses and amp which GC threw in at no more than $5k, since Seller was interested in financing his daughter's college, and I doubt he'd take too much of an in-kind payment.

Methinks thou dost protest too much, Jim...it's nice for us mere mortals to have the facts illuminated on one of these deals, despite the angst that may pose for some whose interests rest with (the myth of?) an escalating burst price spiral. If I had one for sale, I guess I wouldn't be looking to move it just now...specially after reading this thread...though I've got TWO kids in college...hmmm :hmm...what's a 65 Fender Mustang bass worth?

Peace

Unfortunately, this "deal" sheds no light on burst prices or the current state of the burst market.

However, it does shed light on exactly the wrong way to go about selling a burst (or other high value vintage guitar). The seller did a dog and pony show to a few local "buyers" including a pawn shop in Palm Springs. Since when did a pawn shop EVER give anyone more than 40-50 cents on the dollar at most? The same goes for the dealers he walked it into. I'd bet that most of them have no idea about the intricacies of burst pricing (very few people do and many of them are here) and simply looked in the VG Price Guide and quoted a price based on 40-50 cents on the dollar of low, adjusted retail. I think I'm being generous when I say that the Guide's pricing information on bursts is woefully inaccurate. I have no dog in this fight, but I will say that I am quite confident that GC made a very handsome profit when they sold this thing.

Oddly enough, I think this seller would have had far better offers just by putting this thing on eBay, which we all know is also the wrong way to sell a burst.

I think we have to chalk this one up as "idiot seller, who did no meaningful research, gets what he deserves."

:jim
 

mingus

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Point taken. You do get my point don't you? My point was that Guitar Center is an 1.8 BILLION dollar company. It's publicly traded. That means that you I or anyone in the world can become a part owner. it's not an individual. Also, at auctions like Christies the prices for 'bursts that individuals buy are public knowledge. My points were that GC isn't an indiviual so who cares? and even if it was an individual, sometimes those are public knowledge as well.:2zone

Um, no. :ganz

Good luck getting ANY information out of a privately held company.

Guitar Center was was bought out by Bain Capital, LLC, a private equity firm. The deal closed Oct, 9, 2007 and all GC stockholders were paid off at $63 per share, the same day GC stock was delisted from the NASDAQ and ceased trading.

Here is something about Bain from the investor relations page for GC:

Bain Capital (www.baincapital.com) is a global private investment firm that manages several pools of capital including private equity, high-yield assets, mezzanine capital and public equity with approximately $50 billion in assets under management. Since its inception in 1984, Bain Capital has made private equity investments and add-on acquisitions in over 250 companies around the world, including such leading retailers and consumer companies as Toys "R" Us, Michaels Stores, Burger King, Warner Music Group, Burlington Coat Factory, Dunkin' Brands, Shopper's Drug Mart, Dollarama and Staples. Headquartered in Boston, Bain Capital has offices in New York, London, Munich, Hong Kong, Shanghai, and Tokyo.
 

jim_anderson

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I guess I don't go with buying a burst is such a hard thing deal, the hard part seems to be in finding them
for sale at a price that makes sense!
 
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DucRyder

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Sweet so the company that owns Burger King and Toys R us owns GC... Still NOT an individual, but a CORPORATION right?:hmm
 

mingus

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Sweet so the company that owns Burger King and Toys R us owns GC... Still NOT an individual, but a CORPORATION right?:hmm

Who do you think owns corporations? Space aliens? Depending on its structure, it could be one person, several institutions, several or many individual partners, other corporations, pension plans, a combination of the above etc.

Bain Capital is an LLC, which stands for Limited Liability Company. These are privately held. Even if it were a corporation, it could still be entirely privately held. In that case, none of their financial information would be accessible by the public. These are simply vehicles under which to run an enterprise.

Only publicly traded corporations are subject to mandatory public disclosure of their finances in the form of quarterly and annual reports and other required documentation that allows them to remain listed on a stock exchange. Privately held enterprises such as LLCs, Corporations, Partnerships, LLPs (Limited Liability Partnership) are, in a word, private and not subject to these types of reporting.
 

AtomEve

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I guess I don't go with buying a burst is such a hard thing deal, the hard part seems to be in finding them
for sale at a price that makes sense!

Yes, that and closing the deal.

I understand Clays sentiment. I know what it's like to be on the verge with all Spidey senses tingling and have the deal fall through. :wah I hate that.

On the flip side when everything goes right and the guitar falls out of the sky into your lap. Now that is heaven!! :dude: :salude
 

AtomEve

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FYI Mitt Romney is a founder of Bain Cap. I like Corporations because I like groups of people that get together to accomplish great things. GC is so big that they do a LOT of things wrong. By the same token they do a LOT of thing right.
 

mingus

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grey_portrait.jpg


Yup. THAT'S the guy who's behind the evil corporations.



:rofl
 
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