• Guys, we've spent considerable money converting the Les Paul Forum to this new XenForo platform, and we have ongoing monthly operating expenses. THE "DONATIONS" TAB IS NOW WORKING, AND WE WOULD APPRECIATE ANY DONATIONS YOU CAN MAKE TO KEEP THE LES PAUL FORUM GOING! Thank you!

Valuable information to consider when evaluating the authenticity of a vintage burst

MikeSlub

Administrator
Joined
Jul 15, 2001
Messages
14,772
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

OMG - I am late to the party, and that was an hour's worth of time reading that I'll never get back.

BTW - Nice case.
 
Last edited:

JJ Blair

Active member
Joined
Jan 9, 2011
Messages
3,456
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

It was this one I saw on Reverb in January for £71k (US$89k) that initially spiked my interest in buying one now while the market is (presumably like everything else) down the toilet.. It is still unsold today. It was only when I found out about Jay's one that I focused elsewhere. In fact, anyone have any views about this one as an entry-level Burst? Refin & reneck with some hooky parts ("all original or correct" apparently) but has original Lifton 5 latch case and looks nice! Serial number (apparently lol..!) is 0 1247. Shall I make an offer...?
Cheers!
Ian

https://reverb.com/item/30697676-gibson-les-paul-standard-1960-sunburst



It has the maple slither under the binding (mind you so does The Nile)...



Headstock looks worse than The Nile though..!!





Bumble bees, lots of fresh solder and a f*cking great chew....!! Happy JJ LOL?!! :rofl



Long tenon looks ok to me (I'm learning..!)



Original PAFs?. Decal looks ok to my now expert eye (!), as does the 2 braid earth screen and the slight tool mark on the leg... Agree?



Ditto this one.... Fake M69s though?



Whadya think? Good value for £71,000 or approx US$89,000...?

First, those M69s look right to me. The funnels are off the wall properly. Second, the pickups are worth at least $10-12k, at least pre-covid prices. Straight pair of M69s can fetch $10k.

Now, the neck was done by Jim at Jam City, who is or was a member here. He's a helluva luthier, and a straight shooter. If you wanna know the provenance of this guitar, I would e-mail him.

It's a Kim LaFleur refinish. They do some nice work.

So, the question for you then is, is it worth it? Figure out the value or an early '60 with some nice flame like this, a double white and reverse zebra. Refin is usually a 50% deduction. Headstock break or reneck is usually a 50%-ish deduction. I'm gonna guess a 65% deduction all together. So, the math says, is this a $275,000 Burst before issues? Could be. I don't hate the price, pre-covid. Where's the market going from here? If it doesn't worry you, then I guess no big deal. But if it's only a refin and re-neck, and everything else is straight, with that flame, I could see it getting $300,000 for the straight version, from the sales I've seen in the last year.

That's my 2¢, which is worth even less. But if I don't want to pony up to be in the big boys' club, I'd rather spent $80 on this than $30k on the Nile. But honestly, I'd rather buy a no issues Gold Top for $80k, or a Custom for less. My '58 Custom kicks the crap out of a number of Bursts and GTs it's met. Joe B has finally figured out why I love them, and has been grabbing a few. I think it's the best bang for your buck, but some are dogs, so play anything before you buy. Drew Berlin's favorite guitar is a '56 Custom converted to PAFs.
 
Last edited:

Patek

Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2015
Messages
403
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

First, those M69s look right to me. The funnels are off the wall properly. Second, the pickups are worth at least $10-12k, at least pre-covid prices.

Now, the neck was done by Jim at Jam City, who is or was a member here. He's a helluva luthier, and a straight shooter. If you wanna know the provenance of this guitar, I would e-mail him.

It's a Kim LaFleur refinish. They do some nice work.

So, the question for you then is, is it worth it? Figure out the value or an early '60 with some nice flame like this, a double white and reverse zebra. Refin is usually a 50% deduction. Headstock break or reneck is usually a 50%-ish deduction. I'm gonna guess a 65% deduction all together. So, the math says, is this a $275,000 Burst before issues? Could be. I don't hate the price, pre-covid. Where's the market going from here? If it doesn't worry you, then I guess no big deal. But if it's only a refin and re-neck, and everything else is straight, with that flame, I could see it getting $300,000 for the straight version, from the sales I've seen in the last year.

That's my 2¢, which is worth even less. But if I don't want to pony up to be in the big boys' club, I'd rather spent $80 on this than $30k on the Nile. But honestly, I'd rather buy a no issues Gold Top for $80k, or a Custom for less. My '58 Custom kicks the crap out of a number of Bursts and GTs it's met. Joe B has finally figured out why I love them, and has been grabbing a few. I think it's the best bang for your buck, but some are dogs, so play anything before you buy. Drew Berlin's favorite guitar is a '56 Custom converted to PAFs.

for me personally I’d say refin = 50% drop in value and then a re-neck 50% drop again. So if this was $300,000 totally straight then it’s worth $75,000 now. The only bit left of the actual guitar is the body. Parts are parts and one can never be sure if they were original to the guitar in the first place (not that is matters as long as they are correct)

im no expert in anything. But $75,000 seems like the right sort of money to me for a husk body, a new handmade neck and a pro refinish with a bunch of period correct parts. Absolute maximum I would say. I’d rather an early / mid 50s conversion as it’s twice as much ‘old Gibson wood’ than this, and stick on the same period correct burst parts. For less than $75k...
 

Zapper

Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
286
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

OK guitars should be safe to deal with -AFAIK. Other members will chime in here soon, if not.
But a refinished (why?) and RE-necked (why? and with what neck?) legit looking burst at this price..
I didn't look it over in details, but isn't it a bit steep priced, to say the least?


EDIT: You should start another thread about future burst purchases..

.........................................
But this T&T stuff... did the experienced luthier really admit that he was suspecting your 0-2453 to be less than legit, all along, just to have "the scent" to himself?? I Can't beLIEVE it's true? ..Jeezzz... :bigal

No, that was only my speculation as to why Terry said it was real... And yes, I will set up a new thread for any future purchases (or use the Bursts for sale thread..) :)
 

Zapper

Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
286
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

^^ :XRE :wah No offence, but are you SURE you did not dream this up due to a pint or 2 too many? Or is it some (bad) easter joke??

No sweiger... only the last sentence is my personal speculation.. The rest is true.
 

Zapper

Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
286
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

If that's the truth, then why on earth would he convince his buddy Tom 1000% that it's a 'real 1960 Burst' and allow him to post as such in public I wonder?

Old 'fox' isn't a term I would use.

Good question Ted...... 'Fox' though is just a light-hearted UK expression for a cunning person. I wasn't infering that he had a big snout & fur.... :spabout
 

Zapper

Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
286
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

for that sort of coin you’re best off with an excellent condition full set 1957 gold top, practically all the same specs as a burst just different finish (obviously) and slightly different neck profile. That’s where my money would be going.

for £70k in the burst world will get you nothing but something re-necked, refinished, repro rings and all sorts of other drilled out holes and dodgy stories. Wouldn’t bother mate..


edit:- just seen you actually post one I just described for £71k !! Lessons learned, read all the way down before replying.
stay well clear of that mucked about with burst, if there is one thing I’ve learned from buying vintage gear, it is it’s not worth the hassle to get anything less than 100% straight from 100% reliable sources. Do not penny pinch, spend the extra and get it right. (Although in the burst world it’s £100/£200k ontop of the garbage; so slightly different..)Just not worth the misery unless you really are never planning on selling it, ever.

Thanks Patek, will certainly bear your advice in mind... :)

And yours sweiger, in post #757. And yes will start new thread.

And Jimmi, re your post #758, Terry just messaged me to say not factory grovers, but rather late '60s or early '70s..
 

Zapper

Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
286
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

As others have commented ......I would not put my hard earned money into a substantially modified '50s Les Paul that has any of the following issues:

(1) re-necked; (2) re-topped; (3) completely refinished w/ missing serial number; (4) has a damaged, hacked up body; (5) shoddy amateur neck/headstock repairs, no serial number; (6) warped neck; (7) fingerboard work such as planed, leveled

Marshall, since you put it like that you could be right.... Think I'll leave it. Thanks! :)
 

Zapper

Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
286
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

First, those M69s look right to me. The funnels are off the wall properly. Second, the pickups are worth at least $10-12k, at least pre-covid prices. Straight pair of M69s can fetch $10k.

Now, the neck was done by Jim at Jam City, who is or was a member here. He's a helluva luthier, and a straight shooter. If you wanna know the provenance of this guitar, I would e-mail him.

It's a Kim LaFleur refinish. They do some nice work.

So, the question for you then is, is it worth it? Figure out the value or an early '60 with some nice flame like this, a double white and reverse zebra. Refin is usually a 50% deduction. Headstock break or reneck is usually a 50%-ish deduction. I'm gonna guess a 65% deduction all together. So, the math says, is this a $275,000 Burst before issues? Could be. I don't hate the price, pre-covid. Where's the market going from here? If it doesn't worry you, then I guess no big deal. But if it's only a refin and re-neck, and everything else is straight, with that flame, I could see it getting $300,000 for the straight version, from the sales I've seen in the last year.

That's my 2¢, which is worth even less. But if I don't want to pony up to be in the big boys' club, I'd rather spent $80 on this than $30k on the Nile. But honestly, I'd rather buy a no issues Gold Top for $80k, or a Custom for less. My '58 Custom kicks the crap out of a number of Bursts and GTs it's met. Joe B has finally figured out why I love them, and has been grabbing a few. I think it's the best bang for your buck, but some are dogs, so play anything before you buy. Drew Berlin's favorite guitar is a '56 Custom converted to PAFs.

Thanks for that JJ, very interesting and helpful. I must admit I'd never really thought about a 1958 Custom (3 PAFs?), but presumably the pickups, wood and electrics would be the same as the Standards so should sound pretty similar. Will do a bit of research into them. Extraordinary that the price of Gold Tops & Customs now is so much less....

And yes, I will try to contact Jim at Jam City for a chat about the guitar.

Incidentally, had a nose at your website and interviews earlier today... very impressive! Wish I'd been a bit more respectful now LOL..! :hee
 
Last edited:

JJ Blair

Active member
Joined
Jan 9, 2011
Messages
3,456
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Thanks for that JJ, very interesting and helpful. I must admit I'd never really thought about a 1958 Custom (3 PAFs?), but presumably the pickups, wood and electric would be the same as the Standards so should sound pretty similar. Will do a bit of research into them. Extraordinary that the price of Gold Tops & Customs now is so much less....

And yes, I will try to contact Jim at Jam City for a chat about the guitar.

Incidentally, had a nose at your website and interviews earlier today... very impressive! Wish I'd been a bit more respectful now LOL..! :hee

Ha! I'm just another guitar nerd who somehow winds up in the right place at the right time.

BTW, the trick with Customs is to reverse the polarity of the magnet in the middle pickup, then that middle position is magic. It's like a Fender on steroids.
 

sweiger

Active member
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Messages
1,038
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

No sweiger... only the last sentence is my personal speculation.. The rest is true.

Sorry, too hasty this time .. :##
Note to SELF from Samuel Jackson: "Read the motherf**king thread before you motherf**king post!! " :q
 

Patek

Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2015
Messages
403
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Thanks for that JJ, very interesting and helpful. I must admit I'd never really thought about a 1958 Custom (3 PAFs?), but presumably the pickups, wood and electric would be the same as the Standards so should sound pretty similar. Will do a bit of research into them. Extraordinary that the price of Gold Tops & Customs now is so much less....

:hee

Woods are very different on a custom. customs do not have a maple top underneath the black finish, and have ebony boards instead of rosewood. Also if you get one with original frets you’ll experience the fretless wonder
 

Zapper

Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
286
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Woods are very different on a custom. customs do not have a maple top underneath the black finish, and have ebony boards instead of rosewood. Also if you get one with original frets you’ll experience the fretless wonder

I've already experienced a fretless wonder... the frets & action on my black (soon to be returned..!) '72 Custom are so low that it's difficult to bend the strings. Great if you're a million notes to the bar jazzer, but irritating for us old fart bluesmen... Also, surely the Custom neck & fretboard is gonna look a bit odd on a Standard (unless of course you're Marc Bolan..!) :)

image-placeholder-title.jpg
 

Aloha_Ark

New member
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
101
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Interesting that Charlie mentions that this is a consignment.

https://reverb.com/item/30697676-gibson-les-paul-standard-1960-sunburst

There is an offer button, but no offers yet (or are they rejected automatically without a count)? This guitar needs a youtube demo, otherwise it's like buying something based on appearance and hope/prayer.

On another note, here is a list of prices on a 1957 Les Paul Custom (which would be my choice for an authentic 50's Gibson solidbody with humbuckers):

Date Condition Sold Price
4/2/2020 Excellent $17,745
1/4/2020 Excellent $45,000
12/23/2019 Very Good $27,000
11/18/2019 Good $18,949.29
2/2/2019 Very Good $13,796.35
9/4/2018 Very Good $36,500
12/25/2017 Fair $10,000
11/8/2014 Excellent $40,000
2/15/2014 Very Good $35,000
4/20/2013 Very Good $27,500

(From Reverb)
 
Last edited:

Zapper

Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
286
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Interesting that Charlie mentions that this is a consignment.

https://reverb.com/item/30697676-gibson-les-paul-standard-1960-sunburst

There is an offer button, but no offers yet (or are they rejected automatically without a count)? This guitar needs a youtube demo, otherwise it's like buying something based on appearance and hope/prayer.

On another note, here is a list of prices on a 1957 Les Paul Custom (which would be my choice for an authentic 50's Gibson solidbody with humbuckers):

Date Condition Sold Price
4/2/2020 Excellent $17,745
1/4/2020 Excellent $45,000
12/23/2019 Very Good $27,000
11/18/2019 Good $18,949.29
2/2/2019 Very Good $13,796.35
9/4/2018 Very Good $36,500
12/25/2017 Fair $10,000
11/8/2014 Excellent $40,000
2/15/2014 Very Good $35,000
4/20/2013 Very Good $27,500

(From Reverb)

Interesting that it's on consignment... good spot Aloha...! Just realised that not only would I need to pay 2.5% import duty and freight charges to bring it to the UK, but also the dreaded VAT sales tax at 20%, which would bump the total cost up by an extra £16,400 to about £88,000, or $110,000. Suddenly it sounds expensive...

Thanks too for listing out those Custom prices for me... very fluid aren't they?!

Think I'm gonna look for a decent multi-issue Burst in the UK that I can gradually restore as & when I can find (and afford..) the parts, which is what I was intending to do with The Nile... If any of my fellow Brits here come across such a guitar, then please let me know. Thanks! :hank
 

Ken Fortunato

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Messages
2,700
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Do you really need a vintage LP???

Why not give Dave's a call and grab one of these? You'll save yourself 62K over one of those hacked up guitars and you'll have a genuine Gibson, that's about as close to a Vintage Burst as anyone can get, without spending 300 thousand... And you'll have a warranty, for life...

They really ARE that good... :peace2

Gibson Custom Shop 1959 Les Paul, Brazilian Fretboard

uimepmwwyvb9dj2ioexf.jpg
 

Zapper

Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
286
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Do you really need a vintage LP???

Why not give Dave's a call and grab one of these? You'll save yourself 62K over one of those hacked up guitars and you'll have a genuine Gibson, that's about as close to a Vintage Burst as anyone can get, without spending 300 thousand... And you'll have a warranty, for life...

They really ARE that good... :peace2

Gibson Custom Shop 1959 Les Paul, Brazilian Fretboard

uimepmwwyvb9dj2ioexf.jpg

Looks nice Kenny, thanks! Certainly an option.. I'll have to find one in the UK though... I assume Dave is in the US (somewhere called La Crosse WI... isn't that a game?!). :)
 

Otto 57

Active member
Joined
Nov 19, 2009
Messages
1,339
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Wow. Just like the old days around here.

Nice case, in fact I think you should keep the case as reparations for all this nonsense, also so they can’t use it to scam the next in line.

we should add the serial number to this thread title to help the next person who looks into buying this guitar.

Rev Willy, it’s been a while. Let’s break bread again ASAP!

JJ, well done!

Terry Mueller has forgotten more about old wood than most of us will ever know.
 

Ken Fortunato

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Messages
2,700
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Looks nice Kenny, thanks! Certainly an option.. I'll have to find one in the UK though... I assume Dave is in the US (somewhere called La Crosse WI... isn't that a game?!). :)

It sure is... GREAT dealer... Actually, there may be a problem shipping that to the U.K. due to CITES and Brazilian Rosewood... :hmm

Give 'em a call... What do you have to lose? Even if you find a Vintage LP in the future, it wouldn't be a bad thing to have one of these also...

I have one of the Brazilian's from the Widwood run, and it's far and away the BEST guitar I've ever played... :salude

32592182107_bd639e4e86_h.jpg
 
Top