Valuable information to consider when evaluating the authenticity of a vintage burst

[marshall1987]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Oftentimes... overdriven tube amplifiers (e.g., Marshall, HiWatt, Orange) driving low-wattage Celestion speakers (as used by Jimmy Page at this show), will become hotter and hotter as the show goes on. And I mean power tubes that are RED HOT!

Most guitar players are familiar with how hot an amplifier's power tubes, transformers, and other components can get. However, some may not realize just how hot the voice coils can get in an overdriven speaker. Hot enough to burn your hand if you touch it.

After prolonged heavy use, the output efficiency (power) of a hot amp and speaker will usually suffer. Furthermore harmonic distortion usually increases. Speakers most often fail because they are unable to handle the high current from the output transformer and become very hot. This is know as speaker fatigue and can lead to a "blown" speaker.

All of this can result in a loss of brilliance, high frequencies, and harmonics. I believe Page's amplifiers and speakers are exhibiting this behavior towards the end of the show. This could be one reason his LP Custom sounds like it has more low-midrange character, and less treble frequency response.

 

[JJ Blair]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

21 pages, 801 posts, and I think we have all missed one very obvious thing about the Nile:















It's Beano!

 

[S. Weiger]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

21 pages, 801 posts, and I think we have all missed one very obvious thing about the Nile:















It's Beano!

:laugh2: :rofl :laugh2:
I knew that all along, but I wanted the guitar for myself :2cool

 

[Zapper]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Led Zeppelin Live Performance - January 9th, 1970 (Jimmy Page's Birthday)

You can get a good sense of the differences in sound between a vintage Les Paul Standard and Les Paul Custom from this taped live performance. Page opens the show with his 1959 Les Paul Standard. Towards the end of the show Page switches to his Les Paul Custom. His amplifiers and signal chain remain constant throughout the show.

To my ear the tone of the Les Paul Custom is less defined than his LP Standard. Granted the two guitars have different pickups and switching configurations, nonetheless, his '59 LP Standard sounds like it has more treble and high frequency harmonics. Contrast this with his LP Custom with more low-middle frequency character.

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Thanks for the clip Marshall... unfortunately it's blocked in the UK but it looks like it's a gig at the Albert Hall London on 9 Jan 1970.... Is that right? If so, will google.

 

[Zapper]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Oftentimes... overdriven tube amplifiers (e.g., Marshall, HiWatt, Orange) driving low-wattage Celestion speakers (as used by Jimmy Page at this show), will become hotter and hotter as the show goes on. And I mean RED HOT!

Most guitar players are familiar with how hot an amplifier's power tubes, transformers, and other components can get. However, some may not realize just how hot the voice coils can get in an overdriven speaker. Hot enough to burn your hand if you touch it.

After prolonged heavy use, the output efficiency (power) of a hot amp and speaker will usually suffer. Furthermore harmonic distortion usually increases.

This can result in a loss of brilliance, high frequencies, and harmonics. I believe Page's amplifiers and speakers are exhibiting this behavior towards the end of the show. This could be one reason his LP Custom sounds like it has more low-midrange character, and less treble frequency response.

I think you're right there Marshall.... I've often found the sound of my Standard losing a slight edge of treble towards the end of a long (ie 2hr) show, especially in a hot sweaty venue. Never really occurred to me that it might be the speakers..!

Incidentally, it was nice to see all those British names in your first sentence.... Although you guys can make some great guitars, you need us Brits to make them louder...!

 

[Zapper]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

:laugh2: :rofl :laugh2:
I knew that all along, but I wanted the guitar for myself :2cool

JJ, sweiger, you are naughty! What exactly is a 'beano' in the US anyway? In the UK it's a great comic for kids (and..er...for some discerning adults... naming no names....!).

 

[mipstoo]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

JJ, sweiger, you are naughty! What exactly is a 'beano' in the US anyway? In the UK it's a great comic for kids (and..er...for some discerning adults... naming no names....!).

Here, Beano is a reference to the Burst from Clapton that was stolen and made the famous sound on the "Beano" album of John Mayall and the Bluesbreakers. Considered by many the first Les Paul / Marshall sound coming out the UK and groundbreaking for the rest of the world.

 

[Zapper]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Here, Beano is a reference to the Burst from Clapton that was stolen and made the famous sound on the "Beano" album of John Mayall and the Bluesbreakers. Considered by many the first Les Paul / Marshall sound coming out the UK and groundbreaking for the rest of the world.

D'OH..! Of course... forgot about that LOL..!

 

[El Gringo]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

I think you're right there Marshall.... I've often found the sound of my Standard losing a slight edge of treble towards the end of a long (ie 2hr) show, especially in a hot sweaty venue. Never really occurred to me that it might be the speakers..!

Incidentally, it was nice to see all those British names in your first sentence.... Although you guys can make some great guitars, you need us Brits to make them louder...!

Your last sentence is priceless as I would be that much poorer in tone without my Marshall's. Reading that this morning made me smile ! Thank You !

 

[JJ Blair]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

D'OH..! Of course... forgot about that LOL..!

It's an on going joke for years here. I'm shocked it took this long for somebody to say it.

 

[Victory Pete]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Hi Zapper, I read this entire thread today, wow, did we learn a lot. I hope you get your return as soon as possible. I have never witnessed an actual Burst in person, nor could I ever afford one but I bought 2 2018 ROs and couldn't be happier. From what I can tell from listening to numerous YouTube videos is that these recent Historics now are getting very close to the originals. They are magical in my hands, they make me play differently than I ever have before. Each note is an adventure, I call it "Snap, Crackle, Pop". Good luck and stay safe.

Victory Pete

 

[Rev.WillieVK]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

4/9/20

Sad, at the end of this thread we could have many losers.
But one grinning winner and a "whatever guitar" as an "art object" with value because of this forum story.
At least the search for "Beano" has come to an end :wah
No ?
But maybe there is another Virus spreading ?

:salude

 

[Zapper]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Hi Zapper, I read this entire thread today, wow, did we learn a lot. I hope you get your return as soon as possible. I have never witnessed an actual Burst in person, nor could I ever afford one but I bought 2 2018 ROs and couldn't be happier. From what I can tell from listening to numerous YouTube videos is that these recent Historics now are getting very close to the originals. They are magical in my hands, they make me play differently than I ever have before. Each note is an adventure, I call it "Snap, Crackle, Pop". Good luck and stay safe.

Victory Pete

Wow, they look beautiful Pete. Does the Bigsby stay in tune? I've never known a single one that does LOL..! :hank

 

[Victory Pete]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Wow, they look beautiful Pete. Does the Bigsby stay in tune? I've never known a single one that does LOL..! :hank

It stays in tune fairly well depending on how you use it. Growing up in the 80's I was brainwashed into thinking I needed a Floyd Rose, the Bigsby is so much better not just for the function but for the vintage vibe.

 

[Zapper]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

It stays in tune fairly well depending on how you use it. Growing up in the 80's I was brainwashed into thinking I needed a Floyd Rose, the Bigsby is so much better not just for the function but for the vintage vibe.

Don't you mean IF you use it Pete...?! :spabout

 

[Zapper]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

What do you guys think of this beautiful '53/'59 conversion..... for under £20,000..? Thinking about buying it rather than a real Burst as I won't have to worry about it so much and can therefore take it down the pub for a jam, rather than back to a bank vault.. It has mainly (good) repro parts, but original electrics with early '60s PATs. Just a shame about the positioning of the Gibson logo on the headstock. But we can't have everything in life can we..?!

 

[brandtkronholm]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

What do you guys think of this beautiful '53/'59 conversion..... for under £20,000..? Thinking about buying it rather than a real Burst as I won't have to worry about it so much and can therefore take it down the pub for a jam, rather than back to a bank vault.. It has mainly (good) repro parts, but original electrics with early '60s PATs. Just a shame about the positioning of the Gibson logo on the headstock. But we can't have everything in life can we..?!

Here's more information on that particular instrument:

https://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?213974-1953-Les-Paul-Conversion-project!-Tiger-flame-monster

 

[Zapper]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Here's more information on that particular instrument:

https://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/...-Paul-Conversion-project!-Tiger-flame-monster

Blimey, good spot Brandkronholm...! :3zone

 

[goldtop0]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

What do you guys think of this beautiful '53/'59 conversion..... for under £20,000..? Thinking about buying it rather than a real Burst as I won't have to worry about it so much and can therefore take it down the pub for a jam, rather than back to a bank vault.. It has mainly (good) repro parts, but original electrics with early '60s PATs. Just a shame about the positioning of the Gibson logo on the headstock. But we can't have everything in life can we..?!

Yep yep yep.......why not I ask you:2cool

 

[Victory Pete]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Don't you mean IF you use it Pete...?! :spabout

The way I use it for a gentle shimmer it stays right in tune.