Weight of Kluson tuners

[zombiwoof]

They have a greater effect on tone than bridge posts, tailpiece, studs or anchors, or nuts. I NEVER have noticed a loss of overtones with Grovers. I have noticed a shift into too much overtone and harmonic content when wound wrong. The osts are longer and stick up more so you need to wind more string on the post for the D and G string, a bit less on A and B and you benefit from winding both E strings normal 2-3 wraps in my experience this gives a more pleasing harmonic spread to the overtones produced by the harp tones as well as allowing greater adjustment of string angle behind the nut.

Lighter and looser Kluson types always subtract from tone and add little that I've ever heard. Some higher ratio closed back lock down types of Kluson look alikes offer some increase in tone and sustain over the push in style bushing loose and light Kluson.

Taking away tone and sustain will change the sound of a guitar. It may even be a preference. Not IMO, but opinions vary. It has nothing to do with high gain or "tightening" up for high gain use. I see that logic used all the time with Norlins, or heavier Customs.

Most every single Burst of note, the ones used on all those records and concerts, the tones we still hold up as exemplary, damn near everyone had Grovers or Schallers. The famous players are all on record as stating they did it for tone and tunning stability and where they are still being used, the still have them on.

Kinda makes you wonder.

I don't think a slightly looser post on a Kluson-type tuner makes a difference once the strings are installed and tuned up. The tension of the strings keeps them tight. They are only loose when no strings are attached IMO.

Al

 

[Boogie Bill]

I had a '78 LP that had Grovers when I bought it. I prefer the looks of the tulip tips so I found a set that fit the enlarged holes. I was doing it strictly for the look. To my surprise the guitar sounded better! It had more overtones & was less sterile.
To my ears increased mass increases sustain but decreases overtones & you hear more of the fundamental. IMO this is good for hi-gain tone, but not good for most classic rock overdrive tones.
But I don't think Grovers or Klusons will vastly affect your tone either way; maybe 10%. Again IMHO.

The original owner of the 2006 R9 I bought had installed locking Sperzel tuners--hammered them in and left dents all over the faceplate. (I think drugs and ETOH were involved.)

When I got the guitar's finish touched up a bit (to cover up the burn marks from a soldering iron he'd used to "relic" the finish) I had the luthier leave on the Sperzels and played it that way for a few months. But I decided to retro-fit a new set of the Gibson Historic "Kluson" tuners. Part of that was simply wanting to change the cosmetics of the guitar...part of it was the feeling that the Sperzels were impacting the tone.

While I miss the convenience of the Sperzels, the new tuners did make a difference in tone, and my take would be pretty much the same as Pearly Grapes'. It had a little more "airiness", and seems to have gained a more dynamic response. But in all honesty, the difference is slight at best, but I don't think I'll be re-installing the Sperzels.

And the surprising thing to me is that the Sperzels don't weigh much more than the Klusons; I think the bodies and buttons are aluminum, rather than steel.

Sperzel locking tuners remain one of my favorite tuners--I have them on several of my G&L Legacy-bodied guitars.

But not on a Historic.

Bill

 

[Black58]

They have a greater effect on tone than bridge posts, tailpiece, studs or anchors, or nuts.

Yessir! :salude .. but, NOT greater than thumbwheels! :ganz


On "Reygan" ('09 R8), I went from the original, smaller steelies, to older Historic brass, to Retrospec's thinner, vintage dupes ... an' I'll tell ya, the changes to what the guitar did and how it did it were QUITE startling, to say the least! :wow

 

[Big Al]

I don't think a slightly looser post on a Kluson-type tuner makes a difference once the strings are installed and tuned up. The tension of the strings keeps them tight. They are only loose when no strings are attached IMO.

Al

Al, I meant the whole tuner. Klusons are a looser machine in fit and function in comparison to Grovers. Grovers greater mass and tighter coupling to the headstock account for the tonal difference I hear.:hank

 

[Black58]

.. an' the material they're constructed of, as well as, their internal coupling, is also a consideration.

:ganz

 

[Gold Tone]

Al, I meant the whole tuner. Klusons are a looser machine in fit and function in comparison to Grovers. Grovers greater mass and tighter coupling to the headstock account for the tonal difference I hear.:hank

Yes this

 

[stratking]

For the uninitiated, if I were to try out a set of Grovers on my '13 Traditional, would the Grover 18:1 rotomatic 3+3 tuners (102-18n at guitarpartsresource.com) be what you guys would recommend?

 

[Big Al]

Al; It all comes down to the piece of wood used for the neck. Grover's work great on some and Kluson's work great on others.
You just have to let your ears and personal preferences be the judge of what works for what you want to hear.

I'd agree. The fatfinger thing is a great idea. Tone is subjective.

 

[Minibucker]

I put Grovers on my R7 a few months back, but decided to change back to Klusons again...I like the look better, and I like how the guitar sounded with them better. Grovers sounded a little more 'solid' and steely in the mids....kinda' like the differences some notice between a lightweight and heavy/zinc tailpiece. Maybe a little more sustain, too. But I felt the guitar was a bit more 'woody' and warmer with the Klusons, so I went back.

Probably more noticeable of a difference overall in 'response' to picking/playing than actual 'tone'. Just feels more organic to me overall with the Klusons.

 

[bobbradley]

I put Grovers on my R7 a few months back, but decided to change back to Klusons again...I like the look better, and I like how the guitar sounded with them better. Grovers sounded a little more 'solid' and steely in the mids....kinda' like the differences some notice between a lightweight and heavy/zinc tailpiece. Maybe a little more sustain, too. But I felt the guitar was a bit more 'woody' and warmer with the Klusons, so I went back.

Probably more noticeable of a difference overall in 'response' to picking/playing than actual 'tone'. Just feels more organic to me overall with the Klusons.

+1 this is where I am on the subject as well. That said I really like Grover's and I think they look cooler than any other aftermarket tuner, work well and sound great. I'm a fan but I do think they add a heavier sound if that makes any sense. (Which is just different) but I'm always listening for a little more air :salude so klusons it is.

 

[ONEHERO]

The original owner of the 2006 R9 I bought had installed locking Sperzel tuners--hammered them in and left dents all over the faceplate. (I think drugs and ETOH were involved.)

When I got the guitar's finish touched up a bit (to cover up the burn marks from a soldering iron he'd used to "relic" the finish) I had the luthier leave on the Sperzels and played it that way for a few months. But I decided to retro-fit a new set of the Gibson Historic "Kluson" tuners. Part of that was simply wanting to change the cosmetics of the guitar...part of it was the feeling that the Sperzels were impacting the tone.

While I miss the convenience of the Sperzels, the new tuners did make a difference in tone, and my take would be pretty much the same as Pearly Grapes'. It had a little more "airiness", and seems to have gained a more dynamic response. But in all honesty, the difference is slight at best, but I don't think I'll be re-installing the Sperzels.

And the surprising thing to me is that the Sperzels don't weigh much more than the Klusons; I think the bodies and buttons are aluminum, rather than steel.

Sperzel locking tuners remain one of my favorite tuners--I have them on several of my G&L Legacy-bodied guitars.

But not on a Historic.

Bill

i completely agree with this as I experimented several times with locking tuners and regular on 3 different standard R9s I have

 

[El Gringo]

My experience has been the opposite. Every guitar,(Les Pauls included), had "better" tone with Grovers or Schallers installed over the stock Klusons.

I think tone is subjective, still the increase of frequency bandwidth as well as sustain/bloom has been undeniable in every guitar I have done. This is well known and documented. It can and has been measured.

What can't be measured is the "attachment" some have for these parts. Most of it is a result of fetish fulfillment of anything 59 and I have seen some real pretzel logic used to justify this almost pathological need to have everything from 59 be seen as the apex or epitome of form/function and tone.

I certainly understand the desire to have cosmetic features for wish fulfillment and mojo vibe, and firmly believe that new R series Historic models should have them, but just as most originals used professionally had Grovers installed for tuning and sonic benefit, so should new models be upgraded by those desirous of such benefits.

I would never champion Klusons as better at anything other than looking like the ones used by Gibson in the 50's. That as I see it is the only real benefit.

Well said Big Al. Such a wise sage that you are ! I think you are being much to kind and you could have used any # of adjectives to describe myself included in this ever so all consuming fetish/attachment to the holy grail of all things 59 Burst . I stand Guilty as charged and I sentence myself to be exposed before the court of Les Paul's to tear down this wall . (Flashing back to my youth and tormenting my poor mother with Another Brick in the Wall part 2 ,Pink Floyd ) I forgot to add that I have the stock kluson tuners on my R9 and my Les Paul premium plus ,and I have Grovers on my Les Paul Custom .

 

[LesterP]

Always enjoy a Kluson/Grover necro thread .

Grovers do change the sound of the guitar. Talking about the added mass of Grovers. I replaced the tuner buttons on my '01 Custom Authentic R8 with some lightweight plastic buttons and that alone changed the sound. Gone was a little sustain and some definition. Put those stock kidney bean metal buttons right back on... and my tone came back.
:dude:

 

[Bluespower]

what tone do you like?
open airy
or
solid and tight

 

[Sol]

I suppose it stands to reason that the lighter the tuner the lighter the influence on the resonance of the neck.

 

[Junae9]

I weighed both.

 

[gmann]

"*NOTE* - To those with "heroes" that have Grovers on their Lesters,
you will NOT have the exact same tone (if that is what you seek!) without them. "

I (and those who listen to me) are quite happy with my guitar tone (and, I hope, my playing). Even with the inferior "Kluson" tuners (actually Gotoh-better quality than the old Klusons ever were).

"From '93 'till '09, I AUTOMATICALLY put 'em on my Lesters, purely from a visual standpoint;
Anyone I really liked, with an original Lester, had 'em! .. an' they jus' looked "right"."

From a "visual standpoint", the Grovers they sell today look nothing at all like the Grovers of old. The face washers are larger, and the new diecast bodies are much bulkier.

You can get Grovers with the original milk ‘milk bottle’ body style. Don’t know what’s up with the washers tho.

 

[axeman565758]

so based on these numbers, my 60th Anniv R0, that weighs in a 8 lbs even, (including Grover Rotos and the roughly 3 oz Anniv. medalion) would weigh approx 7 lbs 10 0z if I had gone with Klusons and put on the plastic selector cover....
not bad, but I'll leave as is...