When did post-1961 patent numbered humbuckers end?

[SlashsSnakepit]

I'm interested in knowing when exactly Gibson stopped putting the post-1961 patent numbered (aka patent sticker) humbuckers in their new guitars? In other words, when did they start using T-tops humbuckers? I know that the patent numbered humbuckers began in 1962, and that they were structurally identical to 1961 "PAFs" - which, of course, were different PAFs than the 1957 through 1960 *true* PAFs.

I've read that the T-tops began in 1967. But, for example, does this mean that you can safely assume that all 1966 Gibson humbuckers were the same type of patent numbered humbuckers as the ones from 1962? Or, does it vary from model to model, or individual guitar to guitar?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Wilko]

There are a bunch of threads about some of these details.

Pat sticker pre-T pickups changed coil wires in around 62. Sometime in that process a white lead wire was used.

'67 saw the T-Top come in and the stickers went into the early 70's.

 

[Rayvyn]

Not sure how correct this is but this is the way I understand it so I guess it is IMO... I think it is close if not correct...

Early 57 saw no stickers but full PAFs (pretty rare)...

57-60 Full PAFs...

Sometime in 61 they shortened the magnets and patent was awarded (not the one carried on the sticker however)...

62-67 Patent Numbers with better quality control and some automation making most 7.5 ohms and kinda the same...

68-74 Patent# T-Tops with stickers fully automated and very close construction pickup to pickup... Early T-tops carried only one T on one bobbin... Later had one on each bobbin...

 

[johnnyjellybean]

Early 57 no stickers

57-60 PAFs...

61-62PAFs with shortened magnets

LATE 62- mid 65... patent numbers with black leads on bobbins and nickel covers(considered early patent numbers and virtually the same as 61-62PAFs )

mid 65-68 Patent Numbers with chrome covers and white and black leads on bobbins

69-74 Patent# T-Tops with stickers

 

[Rayvyn]

Steve, were the early 61's made with the PAF sticker but the shortened magnets or did the magnets get shortened the same moment as the stickers switched to the #'s?? Also, when did they all start getting really consistent at around 7.5ohms?? 2 points I have never fully understood...

 

[Bluejazz]

referencethread patentnumber

 

[MK.II]

I`m also curious about when they went to the consistent 7.5k readings. I have a patent # sticker set with a bridge that reads 8.64k and the neck reads 7.65k. They both have the black leads on the bobbins and short magnets. They sound great!!

 

[plaintop]

LATE 62- mid 65... patent numbers with black leads on bobbins and nickel covers(considered early patent numbers and virtually the same as 61-62PAFs )

I have never seen a patent # pickup WITHOUT a white lead. If you have one please send photos, I need to add it to the archives.

They changed a lot of stuff all at once around '62. I think the '60 and '61 PAFs have a distinct tone all their own. Very articulate and usually low in ohms but "hot" compared to modern day humbuckers.

Patent # pickups (post '62-'63) "orange wire" are more focused in the highs and lack the full rich depth of a PAF. Still very good tone, just not as balanced as a PAF. IMO

Wilko is right, around '67 the T-top was introduced. It has been covered here before.

 

[plaintop]

.

 

[MK.II]

My patent # sticker pickups have the purple/maroon looking wire, not the "orange wire". Maybe mine`s a leftover with a patent # sticker on it??? Just guessing!! Actually one of them has the sticker missing but I can see where it was, and the other one`s sticker is damamged but I can see most of the number. They are pretty worn looking but work fine. I just wish they had the original covers!! Sorry, but I don`t have the technology to post a picture yet, or I would. Webtv is limiting, I`m going to have a real computer soon!!

 

[plaintop]

Could be an early one. White lead from one bobbin though, right?

You can email me pics and I can post them....

 

[MK.II]

Could be an early one. White lead from one bobbin though, right?

You can email me pics and I can post them....

Both are black. That`s one of the reasons why I`m wondering if it`s a leftover with a patent # sticker??? It`s just the patent # sticker that`s confusing to me, it doesn`t seem like they should have them. Whatever they are, they sound better than any of my modern pickups.

If I could email some pics I would, but I can`t do that with webtv, sorry! That`s why I`m getting bored with it sometimes!! Thanks for offering the help!! :dude

 

[plaintop]

I'd love to see them. When you can, shoot me some pics. They would be the missing link. Maybe even a "leftover" PAF that got a patent # sticker. Anything and everything is and was possible. :hippy

 

[MK.II]

That`s what I wonder, if they`re leftover short magnet PAF`s. They`re definitely not T tops. All that I know is that they sound real good and right now I have them in a fairly realistic looking very early Y2K R9 (within the first 75) that has the `99 coloring. I have a `99 R9 too, but the Y2K`s top has that subdued, yet also flamey look, depending on the viewing angle and lighting. As soon as I can, and figure out how, I will post pics of my pickups. Thanks!!

 

[johnnyjellybean]

Steve, were the early 61's made with the PAF sticker but the shortened magnets or did the magnets get shortened the same moment as the stickers switched to the #'s?? Also, when did they all start getting really consistent at around 7.5ohms?? 2 points I have never fully understood...

Brett, the magnets got shortened before the stickers changed and to tell you the truth, I've never found consistancy in the impedance measurements. I have a set of early pat.#s that both read in the 8K+ range and they are from 1964.

 

[johnnyjellybean]

I have never seen a patent # pickup WITHOUT a white lead. If you have one please send photos, I need to add it to the archives.

They changed a lot of stuff all at once around '62. I think the '60 and '61 PAFs have a distinct tone all their own. Very articulate and usually low in ohms but "hot" compared to modern day humbuckers.

Patent # pickups (post '62-'63) "orange wire" are more focused in the highs and lack the full rich depth of a PAF. Still very good tone, just not as balanced as a PAF. IMO

Wilko is right, around '67 the T-top was introduced. It has been covered here before.

ALL pat.# pickupsmade from late 62 to early- mid 65 are nickel covered and have black leads only from the bobbins. Also , you CANNOT associate the color of the windings with years when it comes to the early pat#s. On my pair of 1964 pat.#s the windings are darker than my 59 zebras. The really light colored windings are found on the post 65 pickups.
Also I seriously doubt that there is an ear in the world that could tell the difference between a late PAF and an early Pat.# The subtlest differences that one might hear would even exist between pickups of the same year. Early Pat.#s (double black leads) are the best undiscovered secret when it comes to sound. They are less than 1/2 the price of early 60s PAFs and are virtually identical except for the sticker.

As far as T-tops go, I had 4 60s Flying Vs during the mid 90s . Two were 67s and 2 were 68s . All 4 were 100% original and not one had T-tops.( I had to remove the covers on these guitars to play through high gain amps with April Wine. I also had several 68 customs through the years and of the ones that had their covers removed were not T-tops but rather the earlier style with white and black leads.
I'll send along some photos of an early Pat # as soon as I get a chance.

 

[Rayvyn]

So there are some early 61 pickups with the correct PAF sticker and the later design, shortened magnets?? That is not good new at all...

On the consistent 7.5's, I am sure I got that from an article and as I can best recall, it was a result of them switching from the manually controlled winding machines to the automated versions... I can't say that I ever had a set either but there is something very consistent about the Patent # pickups sound wise... I am not a fan of them but maybe that's just me... To this day, I have also not heard a set of burstbuckers I liked so I guess it is about the same thing... Just preference...

I will try and find the article and bring it into this discussion for prospective...

 

[Rayvyn]

Think this was part of where I got it... Not sure if it is good info or not so reader beware... They both kinda touch on it but part 2 talks about the 7.5 thing...

http://www.flyingvintage.com/gcmag/PAF.html

http://www.flyingvintage.com/gcmag/PAF2.html

 

[plaintop]

Here is a shot of one that I had. I'm pretty sure this one is pre '65. It had a reddish wire and a white lead. The tone was more focused in the highs than a PAF, even a '61. It sounded different to me. I'm not saying that a patent # pickup that has ALL the PAF attributes dosen't sound like a later PAF. It makes sense to me that it would. I have never heard one though.

 

[burstone]

How dare you post pix of my pickup without my consent!:mad :lol