"You're Playing it Wrong"

[Offshore Angler]

Pardon the unprofessional rant, but I had fairly belligerent studio client that cracked me and the rest of the guys up. Long story short, the song I was asked to add to had a B section that was actually quite nice. It used a very David Paich-esque minor 7th progression starting in Am7 and the keys were definitely on that vibe. After the listen through I had a plan in place to add some definition to the section. I decided a Terry Kath/Larry Carlton triad approach would sound really nice.

Anyway, we start the track, and when we get to that Am7 part I played an arpeggiated C major inversion (EGC) on the 10th fret ( which is simply the top three notes of the C barre chord on the 10th ) and it rang true and sounded , I thought, really nice and open and embellished what can otherwise be a pretty dull sounding chord as the rhythm part I was hearing was the 5th fret Am7 barre which, let's face it, is pretty mundane, dark and takes up a lot of the mix in the middle.

The songwriter stops me mid-take and proceeds to tell me I'm playing the wrong chord, "It's not a C, it's an Am7 there. " I politely informed him yes, I was playing an Am7. He goes off on me like I'm a newb and he's the pro and informs me , "No, that's a C chord, any guitar player knows that." So I asked him what the notes were in an Am7 barre chord which, naturally, he could not answer but he "knew" that was a C chord. I asked him " Forget your eyes, how did it sound?" His answer was some disjointed ramble that pretty much told me he was simply trying to dig in so I let it go. When in doubt, shut up and take the money! I told him I would use an Am7. So on the next take I went to the 12th and played the GCE combo on the high strings, fretting the other strings but not playing them. Meh, but at least the writer didn't lecture me, lol.

Just another day in the life of a guitar player. I hope this artist gets a million plays but I'm not betting on it. Now, if I was in on the action for credit there would have been a longer discussion, but this was just a pay job.

Chuck

 

[Wilko]

I'm not understanding what you say you are playing, but GCE is a C chord and none of those notes are on the 10th fret . what's on the tenth fret? I don't get it.

 

[TBurst Std]

10 fret, barre chord C shape, top 3 strings played results in 3-2-1 order is E G C
12 fret barre chord Am7 shape, top 3 played results in 3-2-1 order is G C E

Chuck was trying to stay out of the mid range sound with his voicing due to the mix of everything.

 

[Wilko]

top three strings in that shape at 10th fret is F Bb D. How 'bout a pic?

maybe you mean A-shaped barre chord. but that would be G B D

 

[Offshore Angler]

Sorry I mean 8th. I should never post triads without a guitar in my hands lol!

 

[Wilko]

Sorry I mean 8th. I should never post triads without a guitar in my hands lol!

That would be Eb Ab C

 

[TBurst Std]

I too meant 8th.

 

[Offshore Angler]

That would be Eb Ab C

Wilco, Make an E form barre chord at the 8th fret and read out the GB&e strings. That's an inverted C triad which also comprises part of the Am7 chord. F'rinstance, look at an Am7 barre on the 5th fret and compare with the C barre chord on the third frets. Notice anything about the D, G & B strings? That's what we use for a triad approach and now, combine that with your scales (and modes!) and playing a tasty leads is really quite easy. For a modal application use the appropriate major scale's traids as "anchor" positions.

Example: You're playing a southern rock song so lots of b7s everywhere. So the triad cheat code for that is use the major scale of the root's 4th degree for soloing. If, for example the song is in A - very common in guitar-centric music- you build your solo melodic motifs on the D major scale. We all know the 4th of A is D and there are big, fat triads for D at the second, 7th, 10th, 14th and 17th frets that you can find without even thinking about it. Now, you're never lost and by just transitioning the D major scale through those three triad "anchors" you can move up and down the neck as you please, adding that tasteful diagonal line approach instead of being linear in a single position. It's super-easy. (Who wants to be the World's Greatest Four String Guitar Player lol!) When I decided to get trained in theory and technique this is an approach that is common to a lot of great soloists. Garcia and Carleton are great examples of this technique. Garcia's Touch of Grey solo for example, is a perfect demonstration. He's simply moving his soloing anchor triads to the underlying changes. It sounds difficult but once you break it down into the triads it's so easy you can learn that solo dead-balls in about five minutes.

Hope this is clear, It's hard for me to explain in text but with a guitar in my hand it would be simple to demonstrate.

Chuck

 

[Wilko]

Wilco, Make an E form barre chord at the 8th fret and read out the GB&e strings. That's an inverted C triad which also comprises part of the Am7 chord. F'rinstance, look at an Am7 barre on the 5th fret and compare with the C barre chord on the third frets. Notice anything about the D, G & B strings? That's what we use for a triad approach and now, combine that with your scales (and modes!) and playing a tasty leads is really quite easy. For a modal application use the appropriate major scale's traids as "anchor" positions.

Example: You're playing a southern rock song so lots of b7s everywhere. So the triad cheat code for that is use the major scale of the root's 4th degree for soloing. If, for example the song is in A - very common in guitar-centric music- you build your solo melodic motifs on the D major scale. We all know the 4th of A is D and there are big, fat triads for D at the second, 7th, 10th, 14th and 17th frets that you can find without even thinking about it. Now, you're never lost and by just transitioning the D major scale through those three triad "anchors" you can move up and down the neck as you please, adding that tasteful diagonal line approach instead of being linear in a single position. It's super-easy. (Who wants to be the World's Greatest Four String Guitar Player lol!) When I decided to get trained in theory and technique this is an approach that is common to a lot of great soloists. Garcia and Carleton are great examples of this technique. Garcia's Touch of Grey solo for example, is a perfect demonstration. He's simply moving his soloing anchor triads to the underlying changes. It sounds difficult but once you break it down into the triads it's so easy you can learn that solo dead-balls in about five minutes.

Hope this is clear, It's hard for me to explain in text but with a guitar in my hand it would be simple to demonstrate.

Chuck

out

 

[Marc B]

What’s a barre chord?

Bonjour.

 

[Offshore Angler]

You said "C" barre chord on the 10th, so I got it in my head that you were playing a C shaped barre chord on the 10th (Bb!). That's why I asked for a pic.

Anyway, I totally understand the concept. I also get why it might not be the preferred way for the writer to hear it, specially if they are thinking melodically. I'm also guessing that they aren't actually using Am7 and that G note for them isn't really part of the chord in their head. Just plain old Am. Actually playing that part of the chord made it stand out too much.

BTW, I wasn't trying to argumentative, I was actually cornfused. I know sitting with you and some guitars we might not even have to discuss it.

Oh, it was a b7 for sure. In the studio we generally do a listen through, someone will chart out the progression as we do and we then get copies and that's what we work off off (unless you get actual charts but that rarely happens anymore.)
That said, once you have your ears developed it's pretty easy to listen and pull the chords out.

No worries bud, I was always taught the dumb questions are the ones you don't ask. And as a player the very best, singular attribute you can have is thick skin, because everybody is a critic lol!

Chaz

 

[Offshore Angler]

He, he, another one just came to mind. I was doing a rehearsal and when the progression in the song used a Bm7 chord I, being the lazy douchebag guitar player, just grabbed the top four of the D chord with the F# and played the E and A strings open (Dickie Betts 101, think Allman Brothers Revival opening chords ) on the D string since I was already camped out on the second fret. After the song the band's other guitar player - who it seemed to me had a chip on his shoulder had a little meltdown telling me I didn't know what I was doing. I spent about ten seconds trying to explain pedal tones to no avail and then just moved on since it was obvious the issue was more emotional than intellectual for him. This was a local money 3 chord straight four-on-the-floor band if you get my drift. Something about pearls and swine came into my head, he he.



I also used this moment as an opportunity to point out to him that this particularly well-known and overplayed country song is a blatant, blatant rip-off of Etta James and he should be ashamed for playing it, lol.

Chaz

 

[Wilko]

Oh, it was a b7 for sure. In the studio we generally do a listen through, someone will chart out the progression as we do and we then get copies and that's what we work off off (unless you get actual charts but that rarely happens anymore.)
That said, once you have your ears developed it's pretty easy to listen and pull the chords out.

No worries bud, I was always taught the dumb questions are the ones you don't ask. And as a player the very best, singular attribute you can have is thick skin, because everybody is a critic lol!

Chaz

out

 

[Offshore Angler]

Why? A flat 7 is the heart of rock and roll. Take the major 7th chord for example.
An extension chord, by definition includes the chord tones below it so a 7 will be of the form 1-3-5-b7. The perfect fifth makes it dominate and the b7 gives it the "bluesey" feel.
Minor 7th chords are unmistakable to the ear since they maintain the perfect 5th but use a minor 3rd : 1-b3-5-b7.

 

[Wilko]

out

 

[Offshore Angler]

Explain please.

 

[Wilko]

Then you were playing it wrong.

Explain please.

Explain please.

Minor 7 chords are spelled 1, b3, 5, 7.

 

[TBurst Std]

I think Chuck was referring to a 7th chord with a flatted 3rd (minor). I’ve heard other people refer to this a a flat 7

 

[Offshore Angler]

Wilco, you're not thinking terms of intervals. I just showed above how adding a flat 7 to a chord works. In the simplest of examples, think of a cowboy G chord vs a cowboy G7. You replace the high G with an F. Since the G Ionian scale (aka major scale) has one sharp the F becomes a flatted 7th. And yes, I am using flatted and minor 7th interchangeably here because I'm referencing to a major triad so sorry if that is adding confusion.

First off, power chords BY DEFINITION do not contain 3rds or 7ths so I'm not sure what you're getting at there. Second, 7th chords are EVERYWHERE in rock and pretty much the default voicing for blues, so again not sure what you mean. Additionally, going from a major to a minor 7th is probably the most common passing or leading tone in popular music.

So let's do this again, taking a cowboy Am7 that anybody can play and then, demonstrate how it contains an inverted C major triad.

e 0 E (5th)
B 1 C (b3)
G 0 G (b7)
D 2 E (5th)
A 0 A (1)
E 0 E (5)

now move Am7 to the 5th

e 5 A (1)
B 5 E (5)
G 5 C (b3)
D 5 G (b7)
A 7 E (5)
E 5 A (1)

We could go on with other voicing but you shoud have the picture now. In both Am7 chords you can clearly see the C major triad notes C ,E and G. And both Am7 chords contain a root, a minor third, a perfect fifth and a minor 7th. (That should be screaming Dorian at you, BTW, or maybe you could choose the 6th on the ascending lines and use the melodic minor for "texture").

I wonder if the issue you are having is that you are trying to force the chords into linear order rather than recognizing the inversions? That's a common misconception and first day of jazz guitar 101 will be learning inversions.

But you're thinking about it so be encouraged!

Understanding intervals is the entire key to choosing notes in a melody to give it a certain feel. You should be able to discern the 3rds, 4ths, 6ths, and sevenths in a chord or melody when you hear it. Flatted thirds and sevenths should be no-brainers even to someone with a tin ear.

And hopefully as an aside you can see why power chords are so usefull. Just a root and 5th, works almost everywhere. Or as we say in the biz, "When in doubt, pent it out!)




Chaz

 

[Wilko]

out

Thanks for trying to explain