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Did covid-19 increase the value of the 1960 60th Anniversary LP?

JoeC

Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
Messages
79
Hello All,

I decided to trade in my 2014 R8 for the 1959 or 1960 60th V1 Anniversary. I have heard so much on how the anniversary guitars are the closest thing to the real thing. I recently played a vintage 59 LP back to back with the 60 Anniversary and I have to say extremely close. I also own a 2018 59 Brazilian and maybe 3 degrees of separation between the anniversary and that one. Both my 59 and new 60 are night and day difference and improvement between my 2014 R8.

Since I wanted to trade in my R8 I was looking for local shops in Chicago area for the anniversary guitars and have to say -hard to find. No 59s anywhere and 60s were slim picking. Finally had to drive to Milwaukee to find the match. So this got me thinking, Anniversary generally hold value better, 59 better than 60s. Gibson just like most businesses were greatly down in 2020 and sounds like not much is coming out of there recently. If production was down, less 60s were made last year thereby making that year more valuable? Thoughts? My Serial number is 001231 at end of October making it rather low in the line in my opinion.
 

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stib66

New member
Joined
Nov 2, 2020
Messages
7
In my opinion the 60th anniversary models was a step forward for Gibson Custom.

Compared to a 2002 Les Paul Classic and a 2018 58 Historic I have previously owned, my 1960 60th anniversary has more clarity to its tone and it stays in tune better. It is just an overall joy to play and it invites you to pick it up just by looking at it. My sampling size is kind of small though, so I dont know if this would be the same experience for everyone.

With all the good reviews of the 60th anniversary models I guess they will still be considered great guitars in the future. However, if Gibson keeps up this level I dont see why you would prefer them over a regular Historic. Then maybe because of a colour specific to the 60th anniversary.

My 60th anniversary 1960 V1 in Deep cherry
 

Tim Plains

Active member
Joined
Aug 1, 2013
Messages
702
I don't think so.

If you go back year by year on this forum, every model year is the closest thing to the real thing and guys who A/B them to bursts say extremely close. Next year will be more accurate, 2025 more so, 2030 even more.

Gibson Custom do not limit themselves to the confines of one calendar year, meaning if they wanted to make 3,000 total 60th R0s, but only made 800 so far because of covid, they could continue making anniversary R0s this year with 2020 serial numbers. Look at 2014, Gibson continued making 2014 spec guitars with 2014 serial numbers throughout 2015, I recall reading they did the same thing on a run.

Also, it's not only historics that are in shortage right now. There was a Sweetwater article recently that they're selling 1,000 guitars a day and running low on inventory.
 

Thunder Dump

Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2009
Messages
252
New R0s that are showing up to some of the big dealers have a '21 QA card date but '20 serial numbers. I imagine they will do that for a bit to catch up.
 

El Gringo

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
4,437
Hello All,

I decided to trade in my 2014 R8 for the 1959 or 1960 60th V1 Anniversary. I have heard so much on how the anniversary guitars are the closest thing to the real thing. I recently played a vintage 59 LP back to back with the 60 Anniversary and I have to say extremely close. I also own a 2018 59 Brazilian and maybe 3 degrees of separation between the anniversary and that one. Both my 59 and new 60 are night and day difference and improvement between my 2014 R8.

Since I wanted to trade in my R8 I was looking for local shops in Chicago area for the anniversary guitars and have to say -hard to find. No 59s anywhere and 60s were slim picking. Finally had to drive to Milwaukee to find the match. So this got me thinking, Anniversary generally hold value better, 59 better than 60s. Gibson just like most businesses were greatly down in 2020 and sounds like not much is coming out of there recently. If production was down, less 60s were made last year thereby making that year more valuable? Thoughts? My Serial number is 001231 at end of October making it rather low in the line in my opinion.
Beautiful instrument . I am surprised you didn't check out Chicago Music Exchange ?
 

JoeC

Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
Messages
79
I did check out CME. Beside their CME spec Guitars they had 3 1960 Anniversaries. 2 had boring tops and one I almost bought as it was an amazing 7'14". But it had a big dent in the back of the neck.
 

JPP-1

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 11, 2006
Messages
1,307
Hello All,

I decided to trade in my 2014 R8 for the 1959 or 1960 60th V1 Anniversary. I have heard so much on how the anniversary guitars are the closest thing to the real thing. I recently played a vintage 59 LP back to back with the 60 Anniversary and I have to say extremely close. I also own a 2018 59 Brazilian and maybe 3 degrees of separation between the anniversary and that one. Both my 59 and new 60 are night and day difference and improvement between my 2014 R8.

Since I wanted to trade in my R8 I was looking for local shops in Chicago area for the anniversary guitars and have to say -hard to find. No 59s anywhere and 60s were slim picking. Finally had to drive to Milwaukee to find the match. So this got me thinking, Anniversary generally hold value better, 59 better than 60s. Gibson just like most businesses were greatly down in 2020 and sounds like not much is coming out of there recently. If production was down, less 60s were made last year thereby making that year more valuable? Thoughts? My Serial number is 001231 at end of October making it rather low in the line in my opinion.
Historics aren’t made from plastic or graphite. They are made from wood, therefore every guitar will sound different. What you like is a matter of preference. To try and extrapolate some kind of qualitative difference from a sample set of 3 guitars is ridiculous.

All post 2012 Historics share similar construction techniques:

In 2017, most of the True Historic improvements were added to standard historics including a hide glued maple cap
In 2019, unpotted custombuckers and paper and oil caps were added to the historic line.

These same paper and oil caps are an easy 60 dollar mod to do to any age historic. And earlier custombuckers were so lightly potted that to call them potted almost seems a misnomer.

Custombuckers, potted or unpotted, as I have multiple sets of both, are imho less sonically desirable than OX4s, Rewinds, Wizz, Stephen’s Designs, original PAFs and the early Pat#s that I own.

So again, I’m not sure what sets the 60th apart other than a 2 dollar switch plate and 60 dollar paper n oil caps. I also think it’s incredibly bad taste, given the death toll from Covid, to discuss how this pandemic may increase the value of your Hisroric
 

JoeC

Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
Messages
79
Why do these posts so often come down to I know more, therefore you are an idiot and wrong. This is suppose to be enjoyable in this crappy time. Do you think I have only played 3 LPs? Your opinion on the other brand pick-ups is just that , your opinion. Of course different pieces of wood make a difference but there is also evidence that how and how often a guitar is played that affects the tone over time.

There is a difference in player guitars and collectible. I could care less if the anniversary is more valuable but will it be more collectible is more the question.

I am healthcare worker and can give a rats ass if you think it is in poor taste. I do not work direct with covid patients but touching people in physical therapy since the whole thing started. Is it poor taste to say that Gibson and Fender sales are super high due to the pandemic? Any death from this virus is terrible but we can also talk about how the death totals are greatly inflated. Get off your high horse.
 

JPP-1

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 11, 2006
Messages
1,307
Why do these posts so often come down to I know more, therefore you are an idiot and wrong. This is suppose to be enjoyable in this crappy time. Do you think I have only played 3 LPs? Your opinion on the other brand pick-ups is just that , your opinion. Of course different pieces of wood make a difference but there is also evidence that how and how often a guitar is played that affects the tone over time.

There is a difference in player guitars and collectible. I could care less if the anniversary is more valuable but will it be more collectible is more the question.

I am healthcare worker and can give a rats ass if you think it is in poor taste. I do not work direct with covid patients but touching people in physical therapy since the whole thing started. Is it poor taste to say that Gibson and Fender sales are super high due to the pandemic? Any death from this virus is terrible but we can also talk about how the death totals are greatly inflated. Get off your high horse.

While I completely agree with you about exaggerated death totals, titling a post

Did covid-19 increase the value of the 1960 60th Anniversary LP?​

is inconsiderate.​

When you get beyond feeling all butthurt and defensive, maybe you‘ll realize there are more thoughtful ways to ask that question​

 

Big Daddy Class

Active member
Joined
Jan 11, 2020
Messages
120
Well, that went south fast!
I am a Healthcare worker and have taken care of hundreds (thousand?) of active and recovering COVID patients. I did not think of the post being inconsiderate at all. COVID and the pandemic and shutdowns have and will continue to have far reaching effects on every aspect of the economy. I see no conflict in discussing its effects on the production numbers and values of guitars. I also believe that the death numbers have been exaggerated.

Certainly the closing of Gibson (USA and Custom Shop) for 2 months and then working with smaller crews for another month coupled with increased buying has changed the new guitar market--and will continue to do so. I know from a conversation with Martin's largest dealer that Martin is estimating March or April of next year (2022) to receive an order if placed today, of D-28s. Martins daily numbers as well as shutdown times are quite similar to Gibson USA so I would assume there will be similar delays and giant new guitar shortages by Christmas time. Supply and Demand curves will predict that means higher used guitar prices by the end of 2021 and into 2022 until stocks catch up. I know from weekly stops by Nashville's famous guitar shops that inventories are noticeably less for vintage guitars--although there are plenty still for sale.

My guess (just a guess) is that USA models will appreciate more that Custom Shop models but that all used prices will increase over the next few months as the decreased numbers from the shutdowns become more apparent. Of course other factors can be in play that could crash the used market as well--such as increased interest rates, higher taxes, and unemployment figures should the mandates continue or worsen (all of which decrease disposable income for purchases of 5k (ish) guitars). Timing and predicting future guitar prices is tricky as it is extremely multifactorial.

As for the continued improvements of reissues--I reason that tiny improvements, year to year will likely be incorporated into the next year making them better and better as many have stated. I find it difficult to believe that they will "discontinue" some of these improvements the next year as they strive to make them as accurate and good as possible--but then again, Gibson has discontinued improvements and downgraded guitars, year to year, before so it is possible.
 

El Gringo

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
4,437
While I completely agree with you about exaggerated death totals, titling a post

Did covid-19 increase the value of the 1960 60th Anniversary LP?​

is inconsiderate.​

When you get beyond feeling all butthurt and defensive, maybe you‘ll realize there are more thoughtful ways to ask that question​

To further add it is in extremely bad taste to come on our Forum and talk about value/price increases because and from the Pandemic . What is one of the Cardinal rules about our Forum is NOT to discuss prices . You want to find out about current market prices ? That is what Reverb . com is for . I can't help but smell a pump and dump . ( and it is a putrid smell )
 

JoeC

Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
Messages
79
No goal here to sell my Les Pauls in the near future and plan on keeping them for my life time. It is interesting that the healthcare workers are not offended. If you were offended I apologize but if we cancel something anyone finds offensive, soon we will be not be able to talk about anything. Good analysis Big Daddy, that is the type of discussion i was looking to create, not the value of a single guitar.

There is always something the CS will come up with to make it more accurate, but in my opinion its all fluff going forward unless they can reserve a large amount of Braz boards. They are not going to get much better.
 

Big Daddy Class

Active member
Joined
Jan 11, 2020
Messages
120
No goal here to sell my Les Pauls in the near future and plan on keeping them for my life time. It is interesting that the healthcare workers are not offended. If you were offended I apologize but if we cancel something anyone finds offensive, soon we will be not be able to talk about anything. Good analysis Big Daddy, that is the type of discussion i was looking to create, not the value of a single guitar.

There is always something the CS will come up with to make it more accurate, but in my opinion its all fluff going forward unless they can reserve a large amount of Braz boards. They are not going to get much better.
Curious if you believe that the Brazilian boards make them sound better or if you are speaking to the aesthetics of the guitar?
 

JoeC

Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
Messages
79
I know this is very controversial and I started a different post about this a long time ago. There is no doubt that a Brazilian board is a part of the LPs DNA. Brazilian is harder wood, therefore less vibration through the neck which brings out the higher frequencies and adds natural sustain. There is so much to the tone of the guitar that you cannot say all of it is one thing. Read the Beauty of the Burst and the physics part in the back. I have studied this many times. I think what a lot of enthusiasts think/miss, this Brand new LP does not live up to the vintage LP. But the Original LP did not sound that way in 1959. real aging has affects on the magnets as well as the guitar as a whole. The fretboard board becomes harder, the glue hardens, the tension between the body and neck changes and hardens. there is a phenomenon called neck rise. The more you play it the more the good stuff happens. So do I think Brazilian affects the tone - absolutely, but all relative to these things. Two different vintage 59s can be very different, is that a difference of the wood density, weight , how many wires wound around the magnet, how tight the wound, or how often it was played or how it was stored? probably all of the above. I was looking for a 59 60th anniversary with Braz board before I bought the 2018 Braz. I was told they were not going to make any but it turns out they made 10 of them. Two are for sale on reverb for $30,000. the owner does not wish to really sell them but looking for other owners to share their pics. He state this is the closest thing to the real thing, and he has owned 5 original LPs over the years, Ill take his word for it.
Curious if you believe that the Brazilian boards make them sound better or if you are speaking to the aesthetics of the guitar nd have been on a different post regarding this.
 

Big Daddy Class

Active member
Joined
Jan 11, 2020
Messages
120
Not crazy. Not 100% accepted, but not crazy. I have been fortunate enough in my life to meet many knowledgeable individuals in the guitar world. One of them, James "Hutch" Hutchins, of Gibson fame, felt the difference was in the magnets themselves. Apparently the magnets used in 59 bursts are no longer made. The other, George Gruhn, feels the differences are more subtle and include wood densities. He does not discount Hutch's opinions.

Edit--although I know (knew) both men well, I never spoke to them at the same time. Hutch died before I met George who moved in as a neighbor in around 2008.

Edit #2--George does not feel that Brazilian (as a species) gives superior tone to other Rosewoods but does feel that old growth trees give superior tones vs farmed trees. He told me that he thinks East Indian Rosewood sounds as good as Brazilian. He also thinks that although Madagascar Rosewood LOOKS more like Brazilian, it does not sound as good as EIR. In addition, he does not feel like Brazilian Rosewood will be exported again in the lifetime of anyone reading this.

George also does not disagree (it is a fact) that the magnets used in PAFs are no longer available. I was for a while under the belief that the components are somehow banned as environmentally unfriendly or toxic--but George Gruhn tells me that this is not true--it is just that no one makes that style anymore. Apparently they could be made, but no one is currently making them.
 
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JPP-1

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 11, 2006
Messages
1,307
No goal here to sell my Les Pauls in the near future and plan on keeping them for my life time. It is interesting that the healthcare workers are not offended. If you were offended I apologize but if we cancel something anyone finds offensive, soon we will be not be able to talk about anything. Good analysis Big Daddy, that is the type of discussion i was looking to create, not the value of a single guitar.

There is always something the CS will come up with to make it more accurate, but in my opinion its all fluff going forward unless they can reserve a large amount of Braz boards. They are not going to get much better.
I agree, afaic, there is no greater threat to our democracy than cancel culture. So let me be clear, I was not advocating for the removal of your post, the censoring of your opinion or any digital excoriating from the intolerant torch and pitchfork cancel crowd.

Talking about Covid‘s possible positive affect on certain guitar prices struck me as a bit inconsiderate considering what we’ve all been through and the lasting damage this pandemic will likely have. That’s it. Everyone is entitled to their point of view.
Not crazy. Not 100% accepted, but not crazy. I have been fortunate enough in my life to meet many knowledgeable individuals in the guitar world. One of them, James "Hutch" Hutchins, of Gibson fame, felt the difference was in the magnets themselves. Apparently the magnets used in 59 bursts are no longer made. The other, George Gruhn, feels the differences are more subtle and include wood densities. He does not discount Hutch's opinions.

Edit--although I know (knew) both men well, I never spoke to them at the same time. Hutch died before I met George who moved in as a neighbor in around 2008.

Edit #2--George does not feel that Brazilian (as a species) gives superior tone to other Rosewoods but does feel that old growth trees give superior tones vs farmed trees. He told me that he thinks East Indian Rosewood sounds as good as Brazilian. He also thinks that although Madagascar Rosewood LOOKS more like Brazilian, it does not sound as good as EIR. In addition, he does not feel like Brazilian Rosewood will be exported again in the lifetime of anyone reading this.

George also does not disagree (it is a fact) that the magnets used in PAFs are no longer available. I was for a while under the belief that the components are somehow banned as environmentally unfriendly or toxic--but George Gruhn tells me that this is not true--it is just that no one makes that style anymore. Apparently they could be made, but no one is currently making them.
George Gruhn is a vintage guitar dealer so it would stand to reason that he would support the unsubstantiated claim that old wood sounds better than new wood. I have old wood guitars and new wood guitars and would challenge Gruhn or anyone for that matter to pick the old wood guitars from the new wood guitars. For a guy who can supposedly hear how old a piece of wood is or where it was grown, his opinions on Rosewoods are equally befuddling. Of course none of this is substantiated by any hard data but hey, everybody has a right to their opinion.
 

JPP-1

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 11, 2006
Messages
1,307
Not crazy. Not 100% accepted, but not crazy. I have been fortunate enough in my life to meet many knowledgeable individuals in the guitar world. One of them, James "Hutch" Hutchins, of Gibson fame, felt the difference was in the magnets themselves. Apparently the magnets used in 59 bursts are no longer made. The other, George Gruhn, feels the differences are more subtle and include wood densities. He does not discount Hutch's opinions.

Edit--although I know (knew) both men well, I never spoke to them at the same time. Hutch died before I met George who moved in as a neighbor in around 2008.

Edit #2--George does not feel that Brazilian (as a species) gives superior tone to other Rosewoods but does feel that old growth trees give superior tones vs farmed trees. He told me that he thinks East Indian Rosewood sounds as good as Brazilian. He also thinks that although Madagascar Rosewood LOOKS more like Brazilian, it does not sound as good as EIR. In addition, he does not feel like Brazilian Rosewood will be exported again in the lifetime of anyone reading this.

George also does not disagree (it is a fact) that the magnets used in PAFs are no longer available. I was for a while under the belief that the components are somehow banned as environmentally unfriendly or toxic--but George Gruhn tells me that this is not true--it is just that no one makes that style anymore. Apparently they could be made, but no one is currently making them.
George Gruhn is a vintage guitar dealer so it would stand to reason that he would support the unsubstantiated claim that old wood sounds better than new wood. I have old wood guitars and new wood guitars and would challenge Gruhn or anyone for that matter to pick the old wood guitars from the new wood guitars. For a guy who can supposedly hear how old a piece of wood is or where it was grown, his opinions on Rosewoods are equally befuddling. Of course none of this is substantiated by any hard data but hey, everybody has a right to their opinion.
 

El Gringo

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Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
4,437
Not crazy. Not 100% accepted, but not crazy. I have been fortunate enough in my life to meet many knowledgeable individuals in the guitar world. One of them, James "Hutch" Hutchins, of Gibson fame, felt the difference was in the magnets themselves. Apparently the magnets used in 59 bursts are no longer made. The other, George Gruhn, feels the differences are more subtle and include wood densities. He does not discount Hutch's opinions.

Edit--although I know (knew) both men well, I never spoke to them at the same time. Hutch died before I met George who moved in as a neighbor in around 2008.

Edit #2--George does not feel that Brazilian (as a species) gives superior tone to other Rosewoods but does feel that old growth trees give superior tones vs farmed trees. He told me that he thinks East Indian Rosewood sounds as good as Brazilian. He also thinks that although Madagascar Rosewood LOOKS more like Brazilian, it does not sound as good as EIR. In addition, he does not feel like Brazilian Rosewood will be exported again in the lifetime of anyone reading this.

George also does not disagree (it is a fact) that the magnets used in PAFs are no longer available. I was for a while under the belief that the components are somehow banned as environmentally unfriendly or toxic--but George Gruhn tells me that this is not true--it is just that no one makes that style anymore. Apparently they could be made, but no one is currently making them.
ThroBak uses USA made magnets , which the foreign made and imported are not up to spec as the vintage era magnets used by Gibson . Which certainly makes a difference . Besides the old growth wood used by Gibson in the Golden Era it comes down to the vintage PAF's and also the plastisizers used in the modern formula of the Nitro that Gibson Custom finishes the instruments with, but with the finishes being so thin the wood resonates and vibrates and sings in my hands in the neck and the body and you can feel it very easily . Not that I can tell a difference between Brazilian rosewood boards versus East Indian rosewood boards , as I have 2 -2018 Brazilian board R9's and I can't hear a difference . I believe that Gibson Custom since 2018 and forward are making the best Les Paul's since the Golden Era . Everything is perfect to my ears and my feel , as I have been playing Les Paul's since 1977 .
 

JPP-1

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 11, 2006
Messages
1,307
I know this is very controversial and I started a different post about this a long time ago. There is no doubt that a Brazilian board is a part of the LPs DNA. Brazilian is harder wood, therefore less vibration through the neck which brings out the higher frequencies and adds natural sustain. There is so much to the tone of the guitar that you cannot say all of it is one thing. Read the Beauty of the Burst and the physics part in the back. I have studied this many times. I think what a lot of enthusiasts think/miss, this Brand new LP does not live up to the vintage LP. But the Original LP did not sound that way in 1959. real aging has affects on the magnets as well as the guitar as a whole. The fretboard board becomes harder, the glue hardens, the tension between the body and neck changes and hardens. there is a phenomenon called neck rise. The more you play it the more the good stuff happens. So do I think Brazilian affects the tone - absolutely, but all relative to these things. Two different vintage 59s can be very different, is that a difference of the wood density, weight , how many wires wound around the magnet, how tight the wound, or how often it was played or how it was stored? probably all of the above. I was looking for a 59 60th anniversary with Braz board before I bought the 2018 Braz. I was told they were not going to make any but it turns out they made 10 of them. Two are for sale on reverb for $30,000. the owner does not wish to really sell them but looking for other owners to share their pics. He state this is the closest thing to the real thing, and he has owned 5 original LPs over the years, Ill take his word for it.
Your 2018 Brazilian is essentially the same guitar as the 2019. (Don’t let the guy trying to sell is 2019 Brazilian for 30k lmfao convince you otherwise) If you put Luxe Bees paper and oil caps along with the vintage style pots in your 2018 Brazilian. (A 60 dollar upgrade). Viola! For all sonic intents and purposes, your 2018 Brazilian is now a 60th Anniversary Brazilian. Even the inlays on the 2019 Brazilian board Les Pauls are not tinted exactly as they are on the 2018 version
 

El Gringo

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
4,437
Not crazy. Not 100% accepted, but not crazy. I have been fortunate enough in my life to meet many knowledgeable individuals in the guitar world. One of them, James "Hutch" Hutchins, of Gibson fame, felt the difference was in the magnets themselves. Apparently the magnets used in 59 bursts are no longer made. The other, George Gruhn, feels the differences are more subtle and include wood densities. He does not discount Hutch's opinions.

Edit--although I know (knew) both men well, I never spoke to them at the same time. Hutch died before I met George who moved in as a neighbor in around 2008.

Edit #2--George does not feel that Brazilian (as a species) gives superior tone to other Rosewoods but does feel that old growth trees give superior tones vs farmed trees. He told me that he thinks East Indian Rosewood sounds as good as Brazilian. He also thinks that although Madagascar Rosewood LOOKS more like Brazilian, it does not sound as good as EIR. In addition, he does not feel like Brazilian Rosewood will be exported again in the lifetime of anyone reading this.

George also does not disagree (it is a fact) that the magnets used in PAFs are no longer available. I was for a while under the belief that the components are somehow banned as environmentally unfriendly or toxic--but George Gruhn tells me that this is not true--it is just that no one makes that style anymore. Apparently they could be made, but no one is currently making them.
From what I have learned about the magnets ( and if I am wrong please correct me ) is that the foreign made magnets are cheaper and they charge all over the place and that makes a huge difference .
 
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