"Golden Era" should be changed to "50's Era"

[Mdarnell]

Gibson has gone through many eras, many of them very good, but in terms of "golden era", these days might be the "golden era."
It's not fair or right to call an era that produced inferior guitars to modern Gibsons the "golden era." We should change it to the "50's" era, as what people percieve as the "golden era" ends around 1960.
So "50's era" it is.

 

[jb_abides]

and what are these 50s era beauties?

 

[jimmi]

Gibson has gone through many eras, many of them very good, but in terms of "golden era", these days might be the "golden era."
It's not fair or right to call an era that produced inferior guitars to modern Gibsons the "golden era." We should change it to the "50's" era, as what people percieve as the "golden era" ends around 1960.
So "50's era" it is. View attachment 28961

Agree modern Gibsons have made a lot of improvements but “better” and “inferior” are the eye of the beholder. For example, the bodies have improved but the pickups are, imho, inferior not only to every pickup Gibson made through the early 70s but also early unpotted burst buckers from the 2000s. Pots still read low compared to the 50s and the taper isn’t right. The construction and wood on newer ones are more consistently good than the 70s-90s but that is as far as I can go. I have a very very good R0 and a fantastic pre-historic each of which are on par with my 50s LPs but I had to put vintage pickups and pots in them to get them there. And they still aren’t original …the best copy is still a copy. And they still aren’t better than my best 50s LP.

 

[Mdarnell]

Agree modern Gibsons have made a lot of improvements but “better” and “inferior” are the eye of the beholder. For example, the bodies have improved but the pickups are, imho, inferior not only to every pickup Gibson made through the early 70s but also early unpotted burst buckers from the 2000s. Pots still read low compared to the 50s and the taper isn’t right. The construction and wood on newer ones are more consistently good than the 70s-90s but that is as far as I can go. I have a very very good R0 and a fantastic pre-historic each of which are on par with my 50s LPs but I had to put vintage pickups and pots in them to get them there. And they still aren’t original …the best copy is still a copy. And they still aren’t better than my best 50s LP.

In a blind sound test, I seriously doubt if you could pick out a "vintage pickup" from 20 sound examples.
I have a real hard time believing that a simple electronic device like a "pot"/potentiometer cannot be made today, and function as well as a worn out pot in a vintage guitar.
As stated if I had 20 guitars with sound examples you could not pick out your "best 50's LP" from the rest of pack.

 

[F-Hole]

In a blind sound test, I seriously doubt if you could pick out a "vintage pickup" from 20 sound examples.
I have a real hard time believing that a simple electronic device like a "pot"/potentiometer cannot be made today, and function as well as a worn out pot in a vintage guitar.
As stated if I had 20 guitars with sound examples you could not pick out your "best 50's LP" from the rest of pack.

I bet I could.

 

[thin sissy]

I think modern Gibsons are great but 50's Les Pauls are (generally) something else. They are still golden era to me.

Why do you care that we should call your modern guitars "golden"? You can join any Facebook group that's called "vintage Gibsons" these days and you'll constantly see people posting their 2004 LP studios and so on. So no need to change this forum too, you already have facebook people with the same opinion.

 

[sws1]

We apparently should also have "AI Era" so we can include the pics above.

 

[poor man's burst]

In a blind sound test, I seriously doubt if you could pick out a "vintage pickup" from 20 sound examples.
I have a real hard time believing that a simple electronic device like a "pot"/potentiometer cannot be made today, and function as well as a worn out pot in a vintage guitar.
As stated if I had 20 guitars with sound examples you could not pick out your "best 50's LP" from the rest of pack.

The fundamental point about vintage guitars people (specialy those whithout first hand experience) don't get is that the difference between real vintage guitars and moderne repros is not what a listener can percieve when he/she hears the guitar played by someone else, (specially with recorded samples where all the recording-reproduction-listenning process is added to the guitar.amp sound) but the ease with which the guitar player achieve the desired sound. In other words, one have to play the guitar to appreciate how the instrument is "rewarding" or responds to the intention he/she has when aiming to produce a note or a sound. That response may not be felt by the listener.

 

[jimmi]

In a blind sound test, I seriously doubt if you could pick out a "vintage pickup" from 20 sound examples.
I have a real hard time believing that a simple electronic device like a "pot"/potentiometer cannot be made today, and function as well as a worn out pot in a vintage guitar.
As stated if I had 20 guitars with sound examples you could not pick out your "best 50's LP" from the rest of pack.

What kind of sound samples? Compressed formatted YouTube with unknown signal chain? Accurately capturing what is heard in the room is actually quite difficult. If you have ever spent much time in a studio then you know that speakers, microphones, boards etc make big differences in what gets filtered. I will
Even allow that you might take two guitars and EQ them differently to get similar sounds but straight into an (normal ie not modeler) amp ? You can clearly hear the differences live. I have the luxury of being able to do it. If you don’t, then you have to rely on YouTube.

Go on to the other site abd PM James@ReWind who studied the pickups and pots in detail and ask him what the differences are (write a book in fact). He will tell you there are no commercially available pots available tgat match the taper etc of the vintage pots. A while back he even posted tracings where measured all the modern options vs the vintage pots. And if you think these can’t contribute to a big difference you betray your ignorance to how frequencies are combined to make tone. The vintage pots often read much higher than stated ranges. I have two 50s LPs that have pots that read closer to 800k. All sound is based on the low fundamental. But that one tone yields a very uninteresting pure tone like an 80s video game. The frequencies that color the sound…that give it the sound of a guitar vs a piano for example, are the smaller higher frequencies. So a higher cutoff contribute a lot vs the lower cutoff modern equivalents…some of which actually read much lower than the stated 500k. The ones I have measured read 425-450k. Another example is TTops from 70s guitars the early versions of which are actually quite likable but we’re often put in guitars with 300k pots and then sounded muddy. That is not even considering the taper which as I said cannot be replicated with modern versions.

That also ignores the feel etc of the instrument which is not replicated that well. And before you say it, I bought most of my vintage guitars back in the day for less…in some cases much less, than new custom shop guitars cost so I am not protecting my investment.

About every couple months someone comes on here saying the same thing. Invariably, they have almost no actual experience.

 

[jb_abides]

Intangibles are qualified not quantified.

A recognition of feel coupled with tone is hard to describe.

 

[S. Weiger]

I don't even want to reply to this thread...

 

[jimmi]

I don't even want to reply to this thread...

Ironic post

 

[Any Name You Wish]

The guitars are not Golden, they are just guitars. Time is not golden, it is just time. Therefore, there is no "Golden Era."

 

[S. Weiger]

The guitars are not Golden, they are just guitars. Time is not golden, it is just time. Therefore, there is no "Golden Era."

Just like: "A stone cannot fly. You cannot fly. Thus, you are a stone."

 

[jimmi]

Just like: "A stone cannot fly. You cannot fly. Thus, you are a stone."

Starting to get really close to Monty Python there

 

[Any Name You Wish]

Starting to get really close to Monty Python there

Exactly! She's a witch!

 

[McCarthy]

Ultimately, it doesn’t matter what you call it but an AI pic coupled with a tired take isn’t the compelling argument you might think it is.

Bots on forums might be a more interesting conversation to have.

 

[Mdarnell]

What kind of sound samples? Compressed formatted YouTube with unknown signal chain? Accurately capturing what is heard in the room is actually quite difficult. If you have ever spent much time in a studio then you know that speakers, microphones, boards etc make big differences in what gets filtered. I will
Even allow that you might take two guitars and EQ them differently to get similar sounds but straight into an (normal ie not modeler) amp ? You can clearly hear the differences live. I have the luxury of being able to do it. If you don’t, then you have to rely on YouTube.

Go on to the other site abd PM James@ReWind who studied the pickups and pots in detail and ask him what the differences are (write a book in fact). He will tell you there are no commercially available pots available tgat match the taper etc of the vintage pots. A while back he even posted tracings where measured all the modern options vs the vintage pots. And if you think these can’t contribute to a big difference you betray your ignorance to how frequencies are combined to make tone. The vintage pots often read much higher than stated ranges. I have two 50s LPs that have pots that read closer to 800k. All sound is based on the low fundamental. But that one tone yields a very uninteresting pure tone like an 80s video game. The frequencies that color the sound…that give it the sound of a guitar vs a piano for example, are the smaller higher frequencies. So a higher cutoff contribute a lot vs the lower cutoff modern equivalents…some of which actually read much lower than the stated 500k. The ones I have measured read 425-450k. Another example is TTops from 70s guitars the early versions of which are actually quite likable but we’re often put in guitars with 300k pots and then sounded muddy. That is not even considering the taper which as I said cannot be replicated with modern versions.

That also ignores the feel etc of the instrument which is not replicated that well. And before you say it, I bought most of my vintage guitars back in the day for less…in some cases much less, than new custom shop guitars cost so I am not protecting my investment.

About every couple months someone comes on here saying the same thing. Invariably, they have almost no actual experience.

So a worn out pot cannot be reproduced? A worn out pot is "better"? And yes, they can 100% produce a pot, a wiper and a carbon strip, that is extremely close, if not exact or better, than a pot made in the 1950's.

 

[jimmi]

So a worn out pot cannot be reproduced? A worn out pot is "better"? And yes, they can 100% produce a pot, a wiper and a carbon strip, that is extremely close, if not exact or better, than a pot made in the 1950's.

How many vintage guitars have you actually owned or spent more than a handful
If minutes with?

Find it and post proof tracings if you think you can find modern examples. I would be more than happy to buy them. ReWind and others make higher reading Pots but they don’t repriduce the dynamics (and the cost a lot ~$250/pot) fir a repro pot. And…It isn’t wear…although that could contribute. It is a combination of moisture and manufacturing tolerances

Look, I am not going to convince you as you have made up your mind. Ignorance and confidence are a dangerous mix.

Here is a thread you can read through. Contact James if you really want to know more.

Best vintage style pots

For those with experience in this subject, who makes vintage style tone/volume pots and did they feel and sound very close to your vintage pots? I ask, because like most of us have zero experience as with vintage pots and lots of manufacturers claim to have that vintage vibe and I have no way...

www.mylespaul.com

 

[poor man's burst]

In a blind sound test, I seriously doubt if you could pick out a "vintage pickup" from 20 sound examples.
I have a real hard time believing that a simple electronic device like a "pot"/potentiometer cannot be made today, and function as well as a worn out pot in a vintage guitar.
As stated if I had 20 guitars with sound examples you could not pick out your "best 50's LP" from the rest of pack.

May I ask you what are your personnal experiences with Gibson guitars made from 1952 up to 1965?