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Neck Angle Of 58, 59 and 60.

Victory Pete

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Joined
Dec 2, 2009
Messages
252
No, you are missing the point. The sound of a guitar is due to the sum of its parts. To say that something as trivial as a one degree difference in neck angle is totally responsible for the difference in sound between two guitars and ignoring all other factors, is ridiculous. In my opinion, it is as ridiculous as claiming two ring tuners as used on 1960 guitars sound different than one ring tuners used on 1959 guitars.
I understand quite a bit about guitars and what influences their sound. By keeping an open mind and not making comments like yours I can gain beneficial knowledge to add to what I already know. Your tuner analogy is in fact ridiculous, but not really studying any possible differences, I cant be sure.
 
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bluesky636

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Jan 10, 2014
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I understand quite a bit about guitars and what influences their sound. By keeping an open mind and not making comments like yours I can gain beneficial knowledge to add to what I already know. Your tuner analogy is in fact ridiculous, but not really studying any possible differences, I cant be sure.
I can prove that two different guitars with the "same" pickups sound different because I can measure them. Let us know when you come up with a method to prove your claim.
 

Victory Pete

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Joined
Dec 2, 2009
Messages
252
I can prove that two different guitars with the "same" pickups sound different because I can measure them. Let us know when you come up with a method to prove your claim.
I didn't exactly make any claim, so again you missed the whole point of this thread.
 

sunking101

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Jan 13, 2020
Messages
83
I've always thought that the bridge on my R7 is rather high considering that I run a very low action and the neck angle doesn't look too bad.

 

Victory Pete

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Joined
Dec 2, 2009
Messages
252
I've always thought that the bridge on my R7 is rather high considering that I run a very low action and the neck angle doesn't look too bad.

My 2 ROs are similar, I like low action. Is your tone bright at all? The bridge actually has to be that high to clear those 1/2" thick bezels. Also notice how the string angle matches the angle of the bezels, I'd say you are right on target
 

sunking101

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Jan 13, 2020
Messages
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My 2 ROs are similar, I like low action. Is your tone bright at all? The bridge actually has to be that high to clear those 1/2" thick bezels.
It's people saying they like their bridge decked and when I look at other Rs they look to have a lower bridge despite having a higher action. I get paranoid that mine is too high.(It looks fine now but if I liked a higher action my bridge would be much higher than it is.)

My guitar is fairly bright but not tinny. It sounds great!
 

Victory Pete

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Dec 2, 2009
Messages
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It's people saying they like their bridge decked and when I look at other Rs they look to have a lower bridge despite having a higher action. I get paranoid that mine is too high.(It looks fine now but if I liked a higher action my bridge would be much higher than it is.)

My guitar is fairly bright but not tinny. It sounds great!
Interesting, we may be getting someone here. What year is yours?
 

Victory Pete

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Joined
Dec 2, 2009
Messages
252
Here is a 1960 with what must be a steep neck angle due to how high the bridge is. It has the Snap ,Crackle, Pop sound at the end when he plays with some overdrive

 

DOTMKR

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Joined
Oct 12, 2015
Messages
16
I certainly believe everyone’s ears. But how do we know the neck angle is steeper On a 60 compared to a 59? It seems the bridge height is being the determining factor. But the top thickness (arching height) can effect that. are all 60 LP guitars with a higher bridge?
 

DOTMKR

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Oct 12, 2015
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Here is a 1960 with what must be a steep neck angle due to how high the bridge is. It has the Snap ,Crackle, Pop sound at the end when he plays with some overdrive

This top is hard maple, so that might contribute to the snappy sound.
 

Victory Pete

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Joined
Dec 2, 2009
Messages
252
I certainly believe everyone’s ears. But how do we know the neck angle is steeper On a 60 compared to a 59? It seems the bridge height is being the determining factor. But the top thickness (arching height) can effect that. are all 60 LP guitars with a higher bridge?
That is what makes this a mystery. I think neck thickness has something to do with it too. In The Beauty Of The Burst book they talk about the neck being a Tone Filter, but they don't say anything more about how or what.
 

DOTMKR

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Oct 12, 2015
Messages
16
My philosophy after measuring and analyzing instruments is that my best effort is in trying to emulate the way something was made, using all the same type of components as the original instrument. Going back and analyzing is only an afterthought for me. So what is snap? Crack that whip! It sounds to me that this is describing the attack Of the note. How do I analyze the attack? I know from my analysis that the attack of a plucked string is highly affected by the most prominent resonance of the instrument in total. It is not the string sound, but the body and neck sound. The attack is first, and very limited in time to just after pick or finger comes off the string.

If you want to hear every resonance in an electric guitar body and neck, here is how you would do your little experiment. There are more accurate ways but this will get you in the ball park. Damp the strings with paper towel. Suspend it by the strap button at the tail. Bonk it with something like a little hammer but nothing too hard. A rubber tip is too soft, and a metal tip is too hard. The impulse, or bonk should take place on the headstock, near the end where the logo is. You can use your ears especially if you are comparing several instruments. But a more scientific way is to record it into a spectrum analyzer. A computer program with a peek hold is a good way to record several bonks therefore recording the resonance of the guitar in total. This is the total resonance of the instrument. Each part of the instrument has its own resonance but once connected, it becomes one whole thing. A FFT is a visual way to graph out the peaks. Each peak is something your ears hear.

When a string is plucked, there is an impulse at the bridge which can only excite the resonances of that instrument. The location that the pick pluck is an obvious way to excite different body resonances. Nearer to the bridge is brighter. Another big factor is the angle of string that pushes down on the bridge. The geometry is two straight lines converging at the saddle. Steeper results in more downward force and shallower, less. Similarly to where the string is plucked along its length, the angle excites body and resonances differently. The only way for us to change it is to adjust things that effect the angle of strings passing over the bridge. In the construction phase, though, the height of the arching where the bridge sits might be something that effects the attack. There is no possibility that this was changed from 59 to 60 For reasons that effect sound of the instrument. I don’t think this is why you hear a difference in attack.

Keep in mind I am describing my impression of snap and attributing it to attack. Things that keep the strings vibrating are not what I am talking about.

Finally I am getting to neck thickness. If 60 LP standards are snappier and snappier is a brighter attack, and the neck is thinner, then it seems likely that the thinner neck is the cause and not any angle or arching height.
 

Victory Pete

Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2009
Messages
252
My philosophy after measuring and analyzing instruments is that my best effort is in trying to emulate the way something was made, using all the same type of components as the original instrument. Going back and analyzing is only an afterthought for me. So what is snap? Crack that whip! It sounds to me that this is describing the attack Of the note. How do I analyze the attack? I know from my analysis that the attack of a plucked string is highly affected by the most prominent resonance of the instrument in total. It is not the string sound, but the body and neck sound. The attack is first, and very limited in time to just after pick or finger comes off the string.

If you want to hear every resonance in an electric guitar body and neck, here is how you would do your little experiment. There are more accurate ways but this will get you in the ball park. Damp the strings with paper towel. Suspend it by the strap button at the tail. Bonk it with something like a little hammer but nothing too hard. A rubber tip is too soft, and a metal tip is too hard. The impulse, or bonk should take place on the headstock, near the end where the logo is. You can use your ears especially if you are comparing several instruments. But a more scientific way is to record it into a spectrum analyzer. A computer program with a peek hold is a good way to record several bonks therefore recording the resonance of the guitar in total. This is the total resonance of the instrument. Each part of the instrument has its own resonance but once connected, it becomes one whole thing. A FFT is a visual way to graph out the peaks. Each peak is something your ears hear.

When a string is plucked, there is an impulse at the bridge which can only excite the resonances of that instrument. The location that the pick pluck is an obvious way to excite different body resonances. Nearer to the bridge is brighter. Another big factor is the angle of string that pushes down on the bridge. The geometry is two straight lines converging at the saddle. Steeper results in more downward force and shallower, less. Similarly to where the string is plucked along its length, the angle excites body and resonances differently. The only way for us to change it is to adjust things that effect the angle of strings passing over the bridge. In the construction phase, though, the height of the arching where the bridge sits might be something that effects the attack. There is no possibility that this was changed from 59 to 60 For reasons that effect sound of the instrument. I don’t think this is why you hear a difference in attack.

Keep in mind I am describing my impression of snap and attributing it to attack. Things that keep the strings vibrating are not what I am talking about.

Finally I am getting to neck thickness. If 60 LP standards are snappier and snappier is a brighter attack, and the neck is thinner, then it seems likely that the thinner neck is the cause and not any angle or arching height.
I never thought or was aware there where any differences in the neck angles from year to year, Phil Harris mentioned it. I have always thought it was the neck thickness that made the 60's sound brighter and punchier since I played my friends R8 years ago and thought it sounded a bit muddy.
 

janalex

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Joined
Jan 6, 2003
Messages
771
And downward pressure on the bridge from a steeper neck angle can be offset by raising the tailpiece thus mimicking the downward pressure of a guitar with a shallower neck angle
 

Victory Pete

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Joined
Dec 2, 2009
Messages
252
And downward pressure on the bridge from a steeper neck angle can be offset by raising the tailpiece thus mimicking the downward pressure of a guitar with a shallower neck angle
That is true but the way the neck fits into the body could be different for different angles.
 

DOTMKR

New member
Joined
Oct 12, 2015
Messages
16
I never thought or was aware there where any differences in the neck angles from year to year, Phil Harris mentioned it. I have always thought it was the neck thickness that made the 60's sound brighter and punchier since I played my friends R8 years ago and thought it sounded a bit muddy
That is true but the way the neck fits into the body could be different for different angles.
That is true but the way the neck fits into the body could be different for different angles.
It is not too difficult to measure. The underside of the fretboard is a straight line and the end of the body is also straight. It someone has a 1960 (not a reissue) that can be measured. But a comparison is probably the best way to solve this. 59 to 60 on the same bench with the same tool to measure. Personally, I think the 60 is the same as a 59 with the normal variation from sanding in all of them. There is also a visual way to tell. The smile will be different. It moves in towards the fretboard as the angle gets steeper. And the curve at the inside of the poker chip creates a different line.
 

DOTMKR

New member
Joined
Oct 12, 2015
Messages
16
A 53 to 56 has a shallower neck plane on the body than a 57. Some call it the fretboard plane. If the fretboard plane is relatively shallow, then the angle on the neck end has to be closer to 90 Than if the fretboard plane on the body was steep. Because the fretboard is a straight line And the body is perpendicular to the back (And cap/back glueline). I seems unlikely that this has any effect on the attack. The effect of needing the bridge to be higher does seem like it could have an effect though. As Janalex wrote, the downward force can be altered to test for a change.
 

Victory Pete

Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2009
Messages
252
It is not too difficult to measure. The underside of the fretboard is a straight line and the end of the body is also straight. It someone has a 1960 (not a reissue) that can be measured. But a comparison is probably the best way to solve this. 59 to 60 on the same bench with the same tool to measure. Personally, I think the 60 is the same as a 59 with the normal variation from sanding in all of them. There is also a visual way to tell. The smile will be different. It moves in towards the fretboard as the angle gets steeper. And the curve at the inside of the poker chip creates a different line.
What is the Smile?
 

JPP-1

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 11, 2006
Messages
1,308
People hear differences, some even imagine they hear differences and then seek to ascribe these differences to certain specific properties Be it weight, neck size, neck angle etc. Unfortunately there is no science or objective data to substantiate any of it. 3 guitars 5 guitars even 10 guitars still don't make a statistically relevant sample set.

I've played thinner neck Les Pauls that sounded darker then thicker necked Les Pauls. I've played light Les Pauls that have sustained longer then heavier Les Pauls. And vice versa. Every time, I thought I found a rule there was an exception, hence no real rule .

If a guitar sounds good the rest doesn't matter.

Btw, and this is just an opinion. I think top wrapping makes the strings feel slinkier.
 
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