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Amp360

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 16, 2012
Messages
525
I'll disagree on tubes.

I have noticed many differences between makers on NOS and new.

I will tip my hat and respect your opinion but I can notice a difference that is sometimes huge.

And I will add that processing an amp through software will make the difference maybe non-noticible.

I would trust your ears and the processor in your head as nobody has made a processor that complex (or test equipment either)...
It’s not complex, it’s simple physics. If two signals are exactly the same and you flip the polarity of one they’ll null.

It’s a lot more accurate than memory/ears.
 

renderit

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 19, 2009
Messages
10,636
That is where we differ.

It is not simple physics.

At all.

The two signals will NOT be exactly the same.

There is "color".

Use an oscilloscope (bearing in mind they are also "created" by electronics).

Maybe after we have "processed" the signal through your software the signal will be the same.

That is the beauty of this stuff.

Too many gotchas for a hard and fast rule.

And playing into this are wire lengths and routes, proximity to other components, bleed, drift and too many more to count!

Two old amps could sound completely different to your ear.

But technically they are the exact same amp.

And I am not saying an old tube (NOS or otherwise) is always better sounding than a new one.

Could be with all the other factors at play the new one could cancel out some negatives.

When I want "more" from an amp I usually try NOS or used tubes first though.

Maybe you don't discern a difference at the recording desk and if that is what is important to you than that is the way to go.

And that is cool and a buttload cheaper for sure!

Hopefully I have not offended you, that is not my intent.

And you certainly have more skills than I and I love your posts.
 

Amp360

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 16, 2012
Messages
525
That is where we differ.

It is not simple physics.

At all.

The two signals will NOT be exactly the same.

There is "color".

Use an oscilloscope (bearing in mind they are also "created" by electronics).

Maybe after we have "processed" the signal through your software the signal will be the same.

That is the beauty of this stuff.

Too many gotchas for a hard and fast rule.

And playing into this are wire lengths and routes, proximity to other components, bleed, drift and too many more to count!

Two old amps could sound completely different to your ear.

But technically they are the exact same amp.

And I am not saying an old tube (NOS or otherwise) is always better sounding than a new one.

Could be with all the other factors at play the new one could cancel out some negatives.

When I want "more" from an amp I usually try NOS or used tubes first though.

Maybe you don't discern a difference at the recording desk and if that is what is important to you than that is the way to go.

And that is cool and a buttload cheaper for sure!

Hopefully I have not offended you, that is not my intent.

And you certainly have more skills than I and I love your posts.
If the signals were not exactly the same they wouldn't be null. You would get a tiny bit of residual noise, which would be the "difference" between the two signals.

In the guitar/recording world, we're sold a lot of snake oil and fairy dust, but that doesn't trump nature/physics/math.

A guitar amplifier isn't that difficult to record. It's probably about 60-70Hz - maybe 6k. We're not dealing with full spectrum amplification of anything.

If you take a signal, for example, a guitar recorded direct and re-amp it through an amplifier then change the tubes out (taking care not to move the mic, knobs, etc...) and send the same signal through and record that and flip the phase it will null.

If you try to do it by playing the same part, moving something, etc... it won't completely cancel out.

What you may come across is that certain tubes may be a little louder. This is an amplitude change, not a tone change. We perceive louder as sounding better (this is why I keep a cheap little decibel meter on my console for when I mix).

Don't take my word for it, do it for yourself.
 

Jethro Rocker

Active member
Joined
Nov 6, 2022
Messages
89
If the signals were not exactly the same they wouldn't be null. You would get a tiny bit of residual noise, which would be the "difference" between the two signals.

In the guitar/recording world, we're sold a lot of snake oil and fairy dust, but that doesn't trump nature/physics/math.

A guitar amplifier isn't that difficult to record. It's probably about 60-70Hz - maybe 6k. We're not dealing with full spectrum amplification of anything.

If you take a signal, for example, a guitar recorded direct and re-amp it through an amplifier then change the tubes out (taking care not to move the mic, knobs, etc...) and send the same signal through and record that and flip the phase it will null.

If you try to do it by playing the same part, moving something, etc... it won't completely cancel out.

What you may come across is that certain tubes may be a little louder. This is an amplitude change, not a tone change. We perceive louder as sounding better (this is why I keep a cheap little decibel meter on my console for when I mix).

Don't take my word for it, do it for yourself.
Does that take into account subtle tonal differences?

For me, if I hear a slight difference while not expecting anything in particular, that is what it is all about. That and tube life. Recordings are not perfect either, neither are the playback speakers etc etc.
Same models of amps with same components can sound different simply due to the small inconsistencies in components. That I have experienced.
 
Last edited:

corpse

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 9, 2007
Messages
4,618
Big Al swears to this with caps- says that’s a big scam. But as a liFe long wire guy there are a ton of ways to build say a mic cord- has to be the same with tubes. And the line on a scope does not equal what ends up in the ears. I popped an old Raytheon 12ax7 into v2 in my 2061x to replace what was stock and it Definitely perked right up.
But I am as gullible as fuck- I will give you that.
360- you don’t live that far away- we should meet up.
 

ampdan

Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Messages
429
I'm with ren on this one. There is most definitely a sonic difference between NOS and currently manufactured tubes.
And there is damn sure a difference in manufacturing quality, and longevity. It's really not even close.
Got any pics of those boxes of NOS tubes....?
 

Jethro Rocker

Active member
Joined
Nov 6, 2022
Messages
89
Big Al swears to this with caps- says that’s a big scam. But as a liFe long wire guy there are a ton of ways to build say a mic cord- has to be the same with tubes. And the line on a scope does not equal what ends up in the ears. I popped an old Raytheon 12ax7 into v2 in my 2061x to replace what was stock and it Definitely perked right up.
But I am as gullible as fuck- I will give you that.
360- you don’t live that far away- we should meet up.
Scopes are one thing. Subtle differences to the ear are another IMO.
 
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