Factory black '60 Junior.

Michael.Rubin · Dec 28, 2021

ourmaninthenorth said:
So it's neither a fake or indeed a counterfeit, as the thrust of your argument implies.

The question therefore appears to be about it originality, not it's origin.

I believe it's important to have the correct conversation, the other conversation is a completely different rabbit hole.

I think that depends, if the guitar is dressed up to be something that it itself is not, I think that qualifies it as a fake. I'm willing to bend however

You can call the guitar whatever you like. Truthfully I am just putting these photos here as a buyer beware. This guitar has had major structural repair and finish work since the day it was made and none of it was disclosed by the seller. In fact, it was stated many times that the guitar is "all original no issues"

If you want to take a chance on this guitar be my guest. I think I've added about all I can about my experience with it

Wally · Dec 28, 2021

Good info, Michael-Rubin. Pictures tell stories that words cannot deny.
The fact that Michael-Rubin got a complete refund indicates to me that the
Entity that sold him that guitar knew better than to raise a stink over the return in the face of the associated
factual evidence.
From my perspective, just a look at that serial number would have me looking very hard with great suspicion about the originality of this guitar. Black covers up repairs better than transparent cherry red, doesn’t it???

ourmaninthenorth · Dec 28, 2021

Other than the fact that there's no red anywhere on the guitar. This isn't a Cherry guitar painted black. This is a Mahogany guitar with red pore filler painted black.

I've had it in my hands, and my eyes work. I've got some pictures somewhere, I'll root them out.

The serial number anomoly is discussed earlier in the thread, pick the best guess that suits.

I still maintain the nonmenclature of fake and counterfeit is erroneous when expressly applied to the guitar.

This is an original guitar ( ie not a fake or counterfeit) that it's being suggested as having originality and repair issues.

There is a counter argument to suggest that said issues don't exist.

THIS IS AN EDITED POST.

sws1 · Dec 29, 2021

What makes you sure that's a crack repair? I used to have a block neck with similar "shading" up near the headstock, and since I could inspect the grain under a loupe, I could confirm that it wasn't repaired.

I'm also not sure what I'm seeing on the face of the guitar. The purple reflection is thrown me off. Can you point it out?

ourmaninthenorth · Dec 29, 2021

sws1 said:
What makes you sure that's a crack repair? I used to have a block neck with similar "shading" up near the headstock, and since I could inspect the grain under a loupe, I could confirm that it wasn't repaired.

I'm also not sure what I'm seeing on the face of the guitar. The purple reflection is thrown me off. Can you point it out?

I hope to speak to someone later for an evidence based and enormously experienced view on this guitar.

Zero agenda, but interest is piqued.

Rick Henry · Dec 29, 2021

Guitar is as straight as they come. No evidence of a break anywhere, heel or neck IMHO. I had that guitar after Mike had it first time round. The cloudy discolouration seen under the blacklight where the alleged break was is actually from a build up of years of sweat and dirt from playing that's sunk into the finish. The finish blacklights all over correctly with the lacquer crazing being typical & consistent throughout and is particularly noticeable and consistent on the back of the neck/headstock area. The suggestions of the body being re-shaped is laughable. Finish is a typical Gibson factory 'lamp black' finish. And everyone knows who the seller is because he commented in this thread earlier and it's the only factory black 1960 Junior on the market.

miserneil · Dec 29, 2021

Rick Henry said:
Guitar is as straight as they come. No evidence of a break anywhere, heel or neck IMHO. I had that guitar after Mike had it first time round. The cloudy discolouration seen under the blacklight where the alleged break was is actually from a build up of years of sweat and dirt from playing that's sunk into the finish. The finish blacklights all over correctly with the lacquer crazing being typical & consistent throughout and is particularly noticeable and consistent on the back of the neck/headstock area. The suggestions of the body being re-shaped is laughable. Finish is a typical Gibson factory 'lamp black' finish. And everyone knows who the seller is because he commented in this thread earlier and it's the only factory black 1960 Junior on the market.

I also saw this guitar very recently and inspected it. I have seen and owned many 50's Gibsons with broken headstocks and repaired quite a few also. I concur with @Rick Henry in that I could see no evidence of a break at all.

Jumping@Shadows · Dec 29, 2021

I have to echo what @Rick Henry and @miserneil have stated- I was asked about this fairly recently, and as the serial number looks so whacky and anomalous, I suggested it’s best to just pass on it, as it’ll always be a headache, especially with such a rare/exotic finish.
The stuff about a heel and neck break is absurd from the evidence however- the black light just shows some gunk, and the ninja level artistry required to hide duel breaks to show up only as mild shading difference, then botch the serial number make ZERO sense.
Is this the guitar with the routing boo-boo in the control cavity? Much like TW’s ‘black top’ Burst, with the bridge humbucker route showing a near identical router mishap, it’s completely plausible and pragmatic Gibson shot the thing black just to make it a saleable guitar rather than dead stock.

ourmaninthenorth · Dec 29, 2021

How do we think the attempt to put this guitar and the seller in the toilet is going?

Fake, Counterfeit, Scam....???

Is that the sound of a balloon going down I hear?

sws1 · Dec 29, 2021

sws1 said:
What makes you sure that's a crack repair? I used to have a block neck with similar "shading" up near the headstock, and since I could inspect the grain under a loupe, I could confirm that it wasn't repaired.

I'm also not sure what I'm seeing on the face of the guitar. The purple reflection is thrown me off. Can you point it out?

Just to add to my own post. I ask these question solely because I'm inquisitive...not because I'm suggesting anything. I'll let people smarter than me do that.

ourmaninthenorth · Dec 29, 2021

Interestingly, it's just been pointed out that a similar hatchet job is being attempted at the other place.

Is quarterwitism a word?

Rick Henry · Dec 30, 2021

ourmaninthenorth said:
Interestingly, it's just been pointed out that a similar hatchet job is being attempted at the other place.

Is quarterwitism a word?

I saw that. Showed his hand too early?

Rick Henry · Jan 2, 2022

Found these pics I took when I had the guitar. Headstock and heel are perfectly fine, as is the finish. Thanks.

Showco · Jan 2, 2022

That serial number stamp would keep me up at night for the money involved.

yanisroy · Mar 2, 2022

It's beyond my experience to say factory original or not. get-shareit.com get-vidmateapk.com

Brek · Mar 2, 2022

Its always educational to read about this guitars. The lesson is, you pays your money and takes your chance. There are many fakes knocking about, and many genuine ones as well. I think the OP went ***** deep and panicked. Returning it was his best move. I think people need to examine why they want a vintage guitar, I did, and with so many pitfalls I shelved the idea. There are a few well known rogues in the UK (even operating in denmark street shock horror,) that have pretty much trashed the vintage marshall market in the UK they faked so many, such only a very few people could spot them.

Rick Henry · Mar 28, 2024

It’s still doing okay today.

Haaakon · Mar 31, 2024

That is one rare and awsome guitar. I love black junior DC’s!
I have a factory black 58RI myself.

Can i ask What the neck measurements are on yours @Rick Henry ?

Rick Henry · Mar 31, 2024

Haaakon said:
That is one rare and awsome guitar. I love black junior DC’s!
I have a factory black 58RI myself.

Can i ask What the neck measurements are on yours @Rick Henry ?

This one has the typical slim 1960 profile.

Subliminal lanimilbuS · Apr 7, 2024

Rick Henry said:
It’s still doing okay today.

Do you have a close up of the fretboard on that guitar. Also curious about you pot codes if you ever read them.

Factory black '60 Junior.

New member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Member

Attachments

Active member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Member

Attachments

Member

Attachments

New member

New member

Member

Member

Attachments

Member

Attachments

Member

Well-known member