18W need some help on cutting through the mix....

[dukeofblues]

:wail

I am running a 18W EL84 power section amp coupled w/ a plexi pre-amp (AKA AX84 November...Winfield Thomas "winfield" model) head. I use a LP w/ Pearly Gates and a 2x12 Avatar cab loaded w/ G12H30's.

I use a Hotplate to tone down the volume usually at rehearsal. Normally I use the HP at the 12db setting for rehearsal so I dont get bitched at for being too loud.

I LOVE the tone of the amp breaking up and tend to run it around 7-8 on the bright channel and 3-4 on normal channel and have tried tweaking the EQ of course :salude for the crunch i like and the hard rock style I play in this band. This amp has LOW to NO headroom, ...my LP breaks it up around 2-3 on the volume.

THE issue lately has been with the band, it just doesn't cut through enough. AS much as I love the amp and the cranked tone on it's own....I seem to find it too compressed and band members asking me to tweak to add some brightness /cut but it just doesnt seem to sit in the mix as well as I would like. I have tried boosts, OD's etc for solos and it just creates more gain and compression. The cranked sound is great but, it hits a ceiling so to speak with trying to add boosts for solos etc.

I never thought I would hear of a bass player or 2nd guitar player asking for more cut / mid-treble but I'll be damned they do!!!!

I guess I am wondering if I need a speaker change ( I thought of adding a V30 to add some bite) or do I really need a amp with more watts (like a 30-40 watt amp..?) to get the headroom and cut to not sound as muddy.

Sorry for the rambling, but I find the "VOLUME" to be PLENTY loud. Its just I find too much compression and muddiness in my tone when I get the cranked amp sound in my situation using the HP to tame the db levels..but damn that cranked amp sound just kills any pedal..sigh.

I guess my first thoughts is a speaker change...next is maybe a head w/ more watts to give me some headroom and more chime & bite to the tone(and maybe a pedal ... ).

My amp sounds great alone and in a 3 pc bluesy setting but in a hard rock setting it isnt cutting through the mix lately...and yes I retubed it recently and its the only rig I own except my Tech 21 Trademark 10

 

[R4R7Custom]

The trouble w/Class A Twin-84 amps...
No Headroom :wah

I doubt that speakers will help much, but my recommendation would be the Tone Tubby Hempcone Ceramic 12". I have them in the amps I build and use live and they are focused and clear and have excellent penetration (read: cutting through the mix.) They're much better getting throught the rest of your band than the Celestions you have now. I've A/B'd those particular speakers and many others. The Tubbys really do the trick.

Full Disclosure: I'm a Tone Tubby Dealer. But I don't discount them, so you probably won't want to buy any from me.

Essentially, you need at *least* a 30-watt head. That'll give you some headroom before you saturate the output stage. If you love EL-84s, get an AC30. Or even, believe it or not, the Peavey Classic 30 or Delta Blues. (oh, the shame of having a Peavey onstage! :rofl )

Full Disclosure: I'm an Authorized Warranty Service Center for Peavey. I don't sell them, but I've seen the guts and for the number of units sold, I repair very few of them.

And there are amps ad-nauseum to choose from now so you're sure to get lots of advice from our fellow travelers here. Just make sure you can get it serviced locally! Just in case... :2zone :2zone

 

[dukeofblues]

Thanks for the suggestions, I am not biased (no pun intended) towards any tube as long as the amp sounds good....I went from a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe to this amp for the "crunch" factor and being able to get a "good cranked amp tone at reasonable levels" as this style amp is touted for since the Fender was way loud (40w 6L6 and I did not know about attentuators at the time) and the Overdrive was not too impressive, and the 18w delivers that crunchy goodness 100%. .......but when you put it in the mix it gets lost I feel due to no high end bite/cut. The gain/crunch is heavenly on its own but once the band comes in, well thats where it looses its appeal?

Would a JTM45 be a better choice, even with a Hotplate?

 

[RickN]

Essentially, you need at *least* a 30-watt head. That'll give you some headroom before you saturate the output stage. If you love EL-84s, get an AC30.

BRAVO! (says a confirmed AC30 user...)

duke - you're discovering something that several people used to try to get across to the other guitarist I had in a band several years ago. The more gain and the more crunch, the LESS you're heard out front. My old band-mate had a MV Marshall of some model (I don't remember which) along with a 4x12 cab, and he used to set up his controls so he got a lot of saturation and the sucker would sing and he loved the finger squeals... in his living room, where he wasn't trying to carve out sonic space among other instruments. When we'd set up at a gig, it sounded like someone threw a rug in front of his speaker cabinet. We kept telling him to dial back some of the gain, but he just wouldn't listen. At one gig, I actually dialed his controls around a bit for him and he hated it because he couldn't get 'his sound'. But no one could hear him with 'his sound'. At the time, I was playing with my Mesa MkIII combo with one little 12" speaker, and I was cutting through like crazy. But I had everything set for really low gain, and made sure the Mids were up. THAT'S what cuts through the bass and drums.

I would definitely recommend NOT using any pedals for more gain. If anything, dial gain OUT of your amp. Mic it if you have to.

And consider modding your amp to add a second set of EL84s. I'm good friends with Bob Reinhardt, and LOVE LOVE LOVE the sound of his 18 watt amp. But... the Reinhardt that's going to make itself at home at MY house will be his Titan model, which is essentially an 18 watt with four EL84s.

The lesson: Wanna be heard? "Clean up your act." Meaning dial out a lot of the gain and get some of your clarity back. :salude

(or find or build yourself an AC30... :headbange )

 

[Great King Rat]

The only pedal I use with my 18W is a treble booster, powered on a cheap 9v battery. Give it a try. It should give you the edge you are looking for and more.

I have 2 pedals, one is a throbak TB and the other is a TriBooster. Both deliver the goods. The TriBooster has a great clean boost to boot as well.

 

[R4R7Custom]

The JTM45 is an incredible amp, but it does need to be cranked to get the saturation similar to the 18w. And it's very loud at that point. Louder than the HR Dlx. But it sounds like you can use that volume for the band you're in. The question is: can you afford another amp?

Another solution might be to mic your amp. Do you use monitors? This could be a short term solution while you consider your options.

I've heard very good things about the Vintage-style Fender Bassman LTD reissue. This is the circuit the JTM45 is based on and the 4-10s offer a lot of coverage. I tried one at a Guitar Center, but have never gigged with one. Sounded very good, though.

Full Disclosure: I'm a Gold Level Fender Authorized Tech, too. But I've never seen the inside of one of these. The Fender dealer here has yet to get one in stock.

I got these pics from a Fender site for dealers/servicers.

 

[R4R7Custom]

BRAVO! (says a confirmed AC30 user...)

But... the Reinhardt that's going to make itself at home at MY house will be his Titan model, which is essentially an 18 watt with four EL84s.

Dr. V means, I think, the 18w sound w/30+ watts of output. :jim Never tried a Reinhardt. Maybe the good Dr. will bring one w/him when he visits Albuquerque. (hint, hint)... :dude:

 

[dukeofblues]

The only pedal I use with my 18W is a treble booster, powered on a cheap 9v battery. Give it a try. It should give you the edge you are looking for and more.

I have 2 pedals, one is a throbak TB and the other is a TriBooster. Both deliver the goods. The TriBooster has a great clean boost to boot as well.

I built a Homebrew Treble Booster...it rocks, but it still just adds gain & compression. It seems from what has been posted that maybe the 18w truly isn't enough in my situation to deliver the goods without being overly compressed and muddy.

I use a HotPlate so I CAN tame the volume of another amp, now that I know about attentuators...so maybe a higher wattage amp is the ticket.

I have used it mic'ed and it works ok that way, but I don't have that luxury at rehearsals.

Hmmmmm....maybe this is why you don't see too many 18w'ers on stage? I am not saying that it sounds bad & giving the 18w style amps a bad rap, but I just find it dark / compressed in a hard rock band situation and I have recorded with this same head & it sounds great on tape FWIW.:dude:

 

[RickN]

Dr. V means, I think, the 18w sound w/30+ watts of output. :jim Never tried a Reinhardt. Maybe the good Dr. will bring one w/him when he visits Albuquerque. (hint, hint)... :dude:

Within limits, the Titan is an 18watt front end with a double output stage - 36watts. That's a very slight simplification, but not much.

I don't have it yet, or I'd bring it... :2cool

 

[RickN]

I use a HotPlate so I CAN tame the volume of another amp, now that I know about attentuators...so maybe a higher wattage amp is the ticket.

That sounds completely counter-productive to me. The reason for getting a higher-watt amp is to get some headroom. If you're just going to crank the sucker to oblivion again and then dial it back with an attenuator, why bother? I'm not anti-attenuator by any means - You won't find a picture of me gigging with my former band for the first six years I was with them without seeing my attenuator, but I was running a 50/85 watt power amp, and had to crank it to get to 'the edge' (but not into high saturation). If we're talking about an amp that's in the 30 watt range, why attenuate that? If you're not being heard with a cranked 18 watt, it seems a little odd to get something higher, and then attenuate it. Why would you do that? :hmm

 

[Sean French]

Very sound advice from Rick and R4R7Custom.
I had an 18 watt for a short time and it was swallowed up by the band.I could not hear myself.It just does not have enough headroom.I now have a Germino lead 55LV.It's a plexi clone but,has a tube rectifier.Pumps out about 35 watts.No issues cutting through with this one.I run the Germino and a Two-Rock Custom and a/b between them.I always use a very healthy amount of midrange.I love it.I can't seem to get enough of it.As Rick stated the boosted mids will slice right through.Not sure if this would help but,I never mic my cabs.I always use a speaker emulator such as a Palmer.I use my cabs as monitors and a line out from the Palmer goes to the board.They are a god send IMO.Super easy to get set properly in the mix.I also prefer the sound compared to a mic.That's just me though.Good luck.

 

[dukeofblues]

That sounds completely counter-productive to me. The reason for getting a higher-watt amp is to get some headroom. If you're just going to crank the sucker to oblivion again and then dial it back with an attenuator, why bother? I'm not anti-attenuator by any means - You won't find a picture of me gigging with my former band for the first six years I was with them without seeing my attenuator, but I was running a 50/85 watt power amp, and had to crank it to get to 'the edge' (but not into high saturation). If we're talking about an amp that's in the 30 watt range, why attenuate that? If you're not being heard with a cranked 18 watt, it seems a little odd to get something higher, and then attenuate it. Why would you do that? :hmm

True, like I say I have enough volume as I usually attenutate the HP to 12db. The amp has NO headroom though 2-3 on the volume and its breaking up and it just gets dirtier & more compressed after that. My thoughts were that maybe a larger amp wont get as compressed quickly and/or possibly a larger power tube wouldn't be as dark.

So maybe a larger watt amp isn't the ticket, I do need some more treble/cut though, my sound is just dark....which is why I was thinking possibly a speaker change may help ( i run a avatar cab w/ 2 G12H30s). Could the speakers just be too dark for this amp and my style?

 

[6L6]

I have a Blockhead 18 watter that sounds killer in my basement but something happens when I get in a band situation. It'll record great but I'd have to mic it live - not a bad thing since the tone is really happening with a cranked Les Paul. Harmonics and sustain beat anything from the Fender school and I'm a Vibrolux/Bandmaster sorta guy.

 

[trents111]

I had the same problem with my expensive BH. Thats why I got rid of it. Super recording/living room amp. Ended up with a 50 watter. Never looked back.

 

[soldano16]

You are doing what I've recently done - gone from Fender to Marshall.

The Marshall has the mids and that doesn't cut in the mix the way a Fender amp does with the accented high's and lows. I have a 50 watt plexi and it's a struggle to get myself heard as easily as I could with my Fenders, and that's in a trio. It's just the nature of the beast.

 

[avs3259]

Your 18 watt starts breaking up at 3? That's 5E3 territory! I have a 1974x and it's clean at 3 and stays pretty clean through 5. I usually play an R7 w/Wagner Darkburst bridge, Crossroads neck; no effects.

 

[R4R7Custom]

So maybe a larger watt amp isn't the ticket, I do need some more treble/cut though, my sound is just dark....which is why I was thinking possibly a speaker change may help ( i run a avatar cab w/ 2 G12H30s). Could the speakers just be too dark for this amp and my style?

Duke, baby, 18 watts was good in 1955 when Scotty Moore was playing w/Elvis and a stand-up bass. It's not gonna cut it on stage now. :headbange

I'm finding it hard to understand this "my sound is too dark" thing as well as the "use less gain" and "add more mids". I guess I've been spoiled since I started using the amps I build.

I love the "dark" overdriven tone. And I do have to bring the overall volume up to get it over the band.

What I mean to say is: if you like your tone, and it inspires you, find a way to get it at a volume that is suitable for the band you're in. When do you need to be heard over or through the band? When you're playing rhythm? Not usually. If you're referring to your solo passages, then you need more watts, dude. :wail So you can be heard distinctly with the sound you love when it's your turn. Attenuators? Why?!! Personally, I've never used one, or owned one. I bring an amp, a guitar or two, a tuner and the cables to connect everything. I don't use pedals. Sometimes I use an AKG wireless. OK, that's my style. But my point is that maybe you just need another amp so you'll have one 18w and one 30 - 50w.

Also, regarding the JTM45 idea:
Find the Gary Moore Video either at your library or on YouTube and see what he does with a JTM45 and a Les Paul. YIKES!!

OK, I'll shut up now. :salude :salude

 

[mad dog]

I like Duke's suggestion on the Tone Tubby. I'll be doing something similar to my Magnatone M10A (1x12, 2 x 7189A), which is sort of in the 18 watter class. Only in my case, it'll be a Cannabis Rex speaker.

But that won't give the amp much more. There a certain softness to the edge on these type amps, can easily get lost in a loud mix. I find I go much more towards 6L6 amps live, partially because the drive seems to cut better. Whoever said AC30 or equivalent, that's the other excellent suggestion. The 4 x EL84 amps intrigue me for stage work. Would love to try out a Bruno UG30 or Kingsley Deluxe live, see how a bigger form of that EL84 sound works on stage.

 

[Pooker]

I'm not sure what kind of venues that most of you guys are playing where you have the opportunity to open up a 45-50w amp, but my AC30 is too loud for anything but outdoor gigs. I know that the Vox can push close to 40w when cranked, but it's still just an open backed 2x12.

The only way I can get the beautiful on-the-verge-of-breakup Vox tone is to use an attenuator, and that usually compromises some of the sparkle that AC30s are famous for.

I'd suggest experimenting with amp placement -- angle it upwards, or place it on a clair so that you're not just blasting your ankles. Also, try putting it the amp close to a wall so that you get some deflection from the back of the cab.

Mind you, if you just want clean headroom, yer gonna have to use more watts.

 

[59Vampire]

The trouble w/Class A Twin-84 amps...
No Headroom :wah

I doubt that speakers will help much, but my recommendation would be the Tone Tubby Hempcone Ceramic 12". I have them in the amps I build and use live and they are focused and clear and have excellent penetration (read: cutting through the mix.) They're much better getting throught the rest of your band than the Celestions you have now. I've A/B'd those particular speakers and many others. The Tubbys really do the trick.

Full Disclosure: I'm a Tone Tubby Dealer. But I don't discount them, so you probably won't want to buy any from me.

Essentially, you need at *least* a 30-watt head. That'll give you some headroom before you saturate the output stage. If you love EL-84s, get an AC30. Or even, believe it or not, the Peavey Classic 30 or Delta Blues. (oh, the shame of having a Peavey onstage! :rofl )

Full Disclosure: I'm an Authorized Warranty Service Center for Peavey. I don't sell them, but I've seen the guts and for the number of units sold, I repair very few of them.

And there are amps ad-nauseum to choose from now so you're sure to get lots of advice from our fellow travelers here. Just make sure you can get it serviced locally! Just in case... :2zone :2zone

i stopped reading this thread but man, i appreciate this dudes honesty!