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1958 Flying V just listed on Reverb

AA00475Bassman

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Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
3,113
Really a shame so much fake vintage inventory out there , Although one would most likely really need some help authenticating such a rare bird .

I could only entertain a purchase like this if I could accept at a later date possibly proven my purchase is a fake , that would never fly !

Joe Bonamassa seems to have a approach on these purchases with a good track record , This guitar did not appear out of thin air all the sudden for sale !

The famous ZAPPER thread should should give you cold feet about vintage guitar purchases & how wrong people in the know can be ! Trying to authenticate off photos ?

Although Rudys from photos looks great I have friends who have been very pleased with purchases at Rudys .
 

AlienVintage

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Joined
Sep 10, 2015
Messages
310
Just to reiterate, I have absolutely zero personal experience with any original ‘50s Flying Vs. Absolute zero.

This guitar could very well be genuine, and worth every penny of the asking price. I truly have no idea, and smarter and more experienced experts should be the ones who verify these things. My input should not count for anything, in this area.

My few observations were based only on the things I can see/find myself. These might not be important observations, in the end. But here are a few photos, just to demonstrate the little details I mentioned. Not to try to prove anything, by any means - but just to demonstrate where I was coming from. Attached are: a front photo of the documented Don Doss (Emerald City sold) ‘58 V, a front photo of the ‘58 V currently for sale, and a serial photo of the ‘58 V currently for sale:
 

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Joined
Feb 25, 2021
Messages
72
Held? Not inspected internally?
Does it matter?. The seller clearly don´t think we need to see the neck pu cavity or the control cavity on the instrument in question. Wonder why?
What we do however know, is that the case has an interior that is not the usual color, and that at least the saddles are not original. At this price I would expect both honesty AND competence from the seller, so these things should have been disclosed and explained. Taking into account the fact that the instrument is very rare (And there are forgeries of them), the excellent condition, and the apparently very modest price, I would certainly not purchase the instrument, without confirmation of origininality from several respected experts. This is something I would expect to see sold from the Harrisons in Denmark street.
 

Alexander1

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Apr 2, 2021
Messages
5
Flying v case started with red interior and later done with the pink plush we all know, the one depicted in the Gibson gazette standing in the Scalise' window had red interior, others easy to find online have red interior, Kirk Hammet has one with red interior. There was a third case produced, an all-black with yellow interior for 60 to 62 delivered Vs. The black case has peculiar details that experts know already.
The brass of the guitar in question is not dead centered; actually, the top of the brass is on the right side of the center seam.

I have called the store, and after two calls, I was able to get some answers; they assured me strap buttons have gold left.
The distance of pegs from the side of the headstock on a Flying V is affected by the tuners' positioning. I was looking at the headstocks of a different number of Vs. The peg distance from the housing is fine; anyhow, the original set of tuners with shrunken pegs, they said, is in the case.
The guard has all the roll marks reddish halo near the rings and blacklights correctly on both sides.
I also asked for cavity photos, I did not get any, but maybe they will publish in the next few days.
Does anybody in the NY area own a real V to do a side by side? Wouldn't it be interesting?
The sn font is identical for all the digits; the two center numbers are slightly smudged, which I have often seen.
I m not authenticating, nor I believe anyone could tell only from photos. But I am going to pay a visit and see it in person.
 
Joined
Feb 25, 2021
Messages
72
Flying v case started with red interior and later done with the pink plush we all know, the one depicted in the Gibson gazette standing in the Scalise' window had red interior, others easy to find online have red interior, Kirk Hammet has one with red interior. There was a third case produced, an all-black with yellow interior for 60 to 62 delivered Vs. The black case has peculiar details that experts know already.
The brass of the guitar in question is not dead centered; actually, the top of the brass is on the right side of the center seam.

I have called the store, and after two calls, I was able to get some answers; they assured me strap buttons have gold left.
The distance of pegs from the side of the headstock on a Flying V is affected by the tuners' positioning. I was looking at the headstocks of a different number of Vs. The peg distance from the housing is fine; anyhow, the original set of tuners with shrunken pegs, they said, is in the case.
The guard has all the roll marks reddish halo near the rings and blacklights correctly on both sides.
I also asked for cavity photos, I did not get any, but maybe they will publish in the next few days.
Does anybody in the NY area own a real V to do a side by side? Wouldn't it be interesting?
The sn font is identical for all the digits; the two center numbers are slightly smudged, which I have often seen.
I m not authenticating, nor I believe anyone could tell only from photos. But I am going to pay a visit and see it in person.
I don´t recall ever having seen a vintage V case with Maroon interior before. So I did a quick google, and found nothing. But then I thought, "wait, don´t I have a magazine somewhere with a prototype V". And yes I did. In Guitar Players Vintage Gallery Magazine (A short live vintage magazine from Guitar Player)from april 1994 they feature (p.64) what is claimed to be a V prototype with case. The case have what is described as yellow lining (Looks orange to me), and it is mentioned that it is unusual, as they normally are EITHER pink OR maroon. So I stand corrected on the case interior. Maroon interior is apparently NOT a warning sign. I must however still insist that the saddles on the TOM are incorrect, and that it should have been disclosed. I also think that the fact that the tuners on the guitar are not original, should have been mentiond, even if the originals are in the case. Full disclosure, should always be expected, and even more so, when the guitar is in this class.
 

AlienVintage

Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2015
Messages
310
You are welcome, Burst Magnate.

May I ask, is this ‘58 V yours? Or any connection to the guitar?

The reason I ask: obviously people are curious, and I think everyone would like to know anything they could learn about its history. ‘58 Vs obviously don’t turn up very often, particularly a previously undocumented example.

Hopefully you don’t mind me asking. I mean no offense, that is for sure. Thank you!
 

Alexander1

New member
Joined
Apr 2, 2021
Messages
5
I don´t recall ever having seen a vintage V case with Maroon interior before. So I did a quick google, and found nothing. But then I thought, "wait, don´t I have a magazine somewhere with a prototype V". And yes I did. In Guitar Players Vintage Gallery Magazine (A short live vintage magazine from Guitar Player)from april 1994 they feature (p.64) what is claimed to be a V prototype with case. The case have what is described as yellow lining (Looks orange to me), and it is mentioned that it is unusual, as they normally are EITHER pink OR maroon. So I stand corrected on the case interior. Maroon interior is apparently NOT a warning sign. I must however still insist that the saddles on the TOM are incorrect, and that it should have been disclosed. I also think that the fact that the tuners on the guitar are not original, should have been mentiond, even if the originals are in the case. Full disclosure, should always be expected, and even more so, when the guitar is in this class.
👍🏼 I found this: and an article https://reverb.com/news/gibsons-failed-modernist-experiment-the-origins-of-the-flying-v
 

Alexander1

New member
Joined
Apr 2, 2021
Messages
5
Just to reiterate, I have absolutely zero personal experience with any original ‘50s Flying Vs. Absolute zero.

This guitar could very well be genuine, and worth every penny of the asking price. I truly have no idea, and smarter and more experienced experts should be the ones who verify these things. My input should not count for anything, in this area.

My few observations were based only on the things I can see/find myself. These might not be important observations, in the end. But here are a few photos, just to demonstrate the little details I mentioned. Not to try to prove anything, by any means - but just to demonstrate where I was coming from. Attached are: a front photo of the documented Don Doss (Emerald City sold) ‘58 V, a front photo of the ‘58 V currently for sale, and a serial photo of the ‘58 V currently for sale


I found the following post interesting, the guard has some space on the neck pickup like the one at Rudy's.
 
Joined
Feb 25, 2021
Messages
72
I found the following post interesting, the guard has some space on the neck pickup like the one at Rudy's.
Yes it does. But the one at Rudy´s also have a gap between the neck pu and the neck, and that is not commonly seen.
 

Alexander1

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Apr 2, 2021
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5
Yes it does. But the one at Rudy´s also have a gap between the neck pu and the neck, and that is not commonly seen.
You are right, and I agree is not common, but possible. I Use as a reference "V the king of shape guitars" Shinko music book, expensive but very cool, inside there are different numbers of 58 and 59 Vs... i.e., Nancy Wilson/Heart, Rick Nielsen, both the two owned by Rudolph Shenker/Scorpions all these have a gap on neck up similar to the one we are discussing, while others have not. I honestly believe that guessing from photos without inspecting the actual instrument is really hard; I prefer looking for other details (up cavities, pots, wiring, routings) where the inconsistencies are not tolerated. Every time a Korina shows up, the mindset is to prove it fake or with issues, the same is happening for Bursts. We all tend to find the details that create doubt and cast shadows, never seeing anybody asking: "how it plays or sound" or approaching these instruments with an open mindset. I know that the price commands awareness, and the vintage market is complicated. There are many "experts" able to validate these instruments, and I tend to trust the owners of the real ones exclusively while I listen to everybody else. If anyone wants to join me (respecting covid restrictions), I will see the guitar next Tuesday.
 

J.D.

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May 24, 2006
Messages
9,688
Realistically there are probably only a handful of people who could authenticate a '50s Korina Gibson. There are a lot of old and pretty good replicas in circulation. Way too much money at stake to not know for certain.
 

BursTech

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Apr 20, 2014
Messages
4
Looking at the notes in my database, since 1988 I have personally handled/inspected/setup and repaired 3 1950s Gibson Korina Vs with excellent provenance that had what I believe to be factory original maroon lined Gibson cases. Two were 1958 and the other was a 1959. One of the 1958s was purchased from the original owner in the 1970s, and the artist that I worked for was the second owner, still owns it to this day. Extensively documented with color pictures of the original owner in bands during the 1960s. The other 2 were purchased from reputable dealers, still in business, and one of those was purchased by the dealer from the original owner, well documented. The artist I worked for was the 3rd owner, don't know if he still has it. The 1959 didn't have as clear a history, but had at least 2 owners before the music store bought it and sold it to the artist I worked for. It appeared to be mostly original but had a few issues, such as broken poker chip, missing pickguard tip, PAF covers bent by amateur removal and re-install, original tuners gone, bridge volume pot replaced, and a heavily worn maroon lined case with external Gibson star logo badge.

When dealing with guitars of this 'value' the key is provenance. From the original owner to the current owner and it must be well documented and iron-clad. For the guitars that it is possible, the original shipping logs are priceless. Gibson duplicated serial numbers across many lines and sometimes even within the same line, so a lap steel with the same serial number is not a definite no-go, but it's an additional red flag if you don't have iron-clad documentation from the beginning to prove otherwise.

There are 6 well known dealers whose Korina expertise I trust and have used over the years for insurance and pre-sale verifications. I'm sure there are others. But if one of the artists I worked for or one of my clients had an original piece of 1950s Gibson Korina that they were interested in buying I would want an in-hand inspection, verification, and appraisal from at least 2 of those experts before recommending they proceed. Three would be better.

CAVEAT EMPTOR!
 

seafood

Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2003
Messages
34
i agree!!!!!!i'm sure it has real p.a.fs on it....but if you see the the pickup routing and and controls...the story will change......
 

sws1

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Dec 4, 2001
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2,594
original.jpg
 

Burst Magnate

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Jul 19, 2018
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After reading all the conjecture here, I will say I have no connection to the sale of this V. But I have inspected it thoroughly. I have also inspected the comparison guitar that was at EC. If you look at the EC serial number it too is not perfectly applied. Both guitars have consistent evidence on the internals of authentic manufacturing techniques of Gibson. The guitar at EC has an anomaly inside that would make everybody here cry fake, but it is real. People have had plenty of negative things to say about Okra’s V, I have inspected that too. It also has the internal traits I would look for. What you see in a photo on the outside is only half the battle of identifying real Korina. Comparing the serial number of a lap steel with no photo proof means nothing. It seems that people with zero experience like to authenticate in this thread. Korina is automatically fake to people who have armchair expertise. As far as the price, IS $425k cheap?? Are you guys all billionaires? Have you ever been involved in a V sale? I have inspected over 15 real Vs in depth and many side by side. As BursTech said the provenance is also a great thing to tie into the authenticity. If there is an expert here that wants to prove why this guitar is wrong I would gladly meet them at Rudy’s for in hand examination and be glad to learn from said expert. But you better be right....
 

sws1

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Dec 4, 2001
Messages
2,594
Comparing the serial number of a lap steel with no photo proof means nothing.

It's a useful as an anonymous post on a guitar forum from someone who just appeared. ;)


I'm teasing. You sound like you know have some important knowledge. Everyone's excited to see how this plays out.

EDIT: Thanks for the private message. I figured you might now a thing or three. ;)
 
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