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Advantages of an UNBALANCED pickup set.

somebodyelseuk

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Jun 10, 2020
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Gibson didn't do "balanced sets", neither did Fender before the '70s.
'Back in the day' the winders just wound coils all day, and 'threw 'em in a bucket'. The person, who made the pickups pulled the required number of coils, randomly, from the bucket and made the pickup, and 'threw 'em in a bucket'. The person wiring up the guitar, pulled the required number of pickups, randomly, from the bucket and 'soldered them where they landed'.
Whilst it's not quite so 'random' these days, the Custom Shop still does it this way.
I've an R7 and an R9, made just over a year apart, and the pickups, within mfg. tolerances, all measure 8k.
I've a pair of Yamaha SGs I've had since the 80s, made two years apart, and both read exactly the same, with the higher wind pickups being at the neck. Despite being identical setups, one is very 'phasey/hollow' in the middle and the other isn't...

Kossoff's favourite LPs also had 'hotter' wound neck pickups, by the way.
 

Bryansamui

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Jul 1, 2022
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198
Gibson didn't do "balanced sets", neither did Fender before the '70s.
'Back in the day' the winders just wound coils all day, and 'threw 'em in a bucket'. The person, who made the pickups pulled the required number of coils, randomly, from the bucket and made the pickup, and 'threw 'em in a bucket'. The person wiring up the guitar, pulled the required number of pickups, randomly, from the bucket and 'soldered them where they landed'.
Whilst it's not quite so 'random' these days, the Custom Shop still does it this way.
I've an R7 and an R9, made just over a year apart, and the pickups, within mfg. tolerances, all measure 8k.
I've a pair of Yamaha SGs I've had since the 80s, made two years apart, and both read exactly the same, with the higher wind pickups being at the neck. Despite being identical setups, one is very 'phasey/hollow' in the middle and the other isn't...

Kossoff's favourite LPs also had 'hotter' wound neck pickups, by the way.
The "bucket" phenomenon would point to 50 % approx of vintage Instruments having a hotter wound pickup in neck.. Jimmy Pages neck was "sort of" hotter.. DCR Yes..Output No.His Bridge had more output despite the Lower DCR
 

somebodyelseuk

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The "bucket" phenomenon would point to 50 % approx of vintage Instruments having a hotter wound pickup in neck.. Jimmy Pages neck was "sort of" hotter.. DCR Yes..Output No.His Bridge had more output despite the Lower DCR
Well, I did say 'hotter wind', not louder.
To qualify, my two 'R's, have 8k pickups all round. My Yamahas are both below 7.5k. The Yamahas are the loudest guitars I own, barring a couple of Strats with EMGs in them.
People seem to get hung up on DCR... even the winders. Show me a "balanced set" that doesn't have the bridge pickup with the highest DCR.
You know it's only part of the recipe. I know it's only part of the recipe. Joe Public thinks it's everything, for the most part.

Balanced sets weren't a thing back in the 50s and 60s. Gibson made one humbucker, Fender made one Strat pickup. They varied a bit, but didn't think about what was going where. They just soldered pickups in. That's it.
 

Bryansamui

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Well, I did say 'hotter wind', not louder.
To qualify, my two 'R's, have 8k pickups all round. My Yamahas are both below 7.5k. The Yamahas are the loudest guitars I own, barring a couple of Strats with EMGs in them.
People seem to get hung up on DCR... even the winders. Show me a "balanced set" that doesn't have the bridge pickup with the highest DCR.
You know it's only part of the recipe. I know it's only part of the recipe. Joe Public thinks it's everything, for the most part.

Balanced sets weren't a thing back in the 50s and 60s. Gibson made one humbucker, Fender made one Strat pickup. They varied a bit, but didn't think about what was going where. They just soldered pickups in. That's it.
Yes ...Agree, My 1973 Page Madison Square Garden sets can have DCR +/- 10%..I can get still get consistent product..What needs to be consistent are my magnets.If that supply dries up I'm in trouble .I get asked all the time about my magnets. I won't sell them on their own..
The DCR tells me the pickup is not 'open circuit'.. not much else
 

uOpt

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Nov 20, 2007
Messages
166
I think we need to give pickup makers a bit more credit. For example, the Seth Lover set is pretty much even between neck and bridge.
 

Wally

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Absolutely!..The middle sound.. I get huge "phase cancellation" in the middle position even though it's "in phase" On my YT channel you can hear the 1973 Live Jimmy Page Tone .No Neck Mud like you say, Hollow Chirp Mid Sound, Tele on Steroids bridge...Sounds like 3 different guitars.
Have you measured those three outputs with an ohmmeter? I would be interested in seeing those numbers.
 

El Gringo

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Apr 8, 2015
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Yes ...Agree, My 1973 Page Madison Square Garden sets can have DCR +/- 10%..I can get still get consistent product..What needs to be consistent are my magnets.If that supply dries up I'm in trouble .I get asked all the time about my magnets. I won't sell them on their own..
The DCR tells me the pickup is not 'open circuit'.. not much else
I have been just listening to your you tube clip MSG and it sure does sound like The Song Remains the Same . Very impressive
 

Wally

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The DCR tells me the pickup is not 'open circuit'.. not much else

‘Not much else”. I agree, However, .one of the things the DCR reveals is whether or not two coils or two pickups are
Out of phase, correct?
 

Wilko

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‘Not much else”. I agree, However, .one of the things the DCR reveals is whether or not two coils or two pickups are
Out of phase, correct?
DCR can be an indicator of the output related to the other pickup in a stock pair in most cases. The higher number is usually louder (not always)

BTW: how would the DCR tell of phase?
 

Wally

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DCR can be an indicator of the output related to the other pickup in a stock pair in most cases. The higher number is usually louder (not always)

BTW: how would the DCR tell of phase?

If the two pickups are out of phase, the reading in the middle position..both pickups in circuit…will have a lower resistance reading than either pickup alone. In phase would result in a resistance greater than either pickup alone.
 

Mr. Papa

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Jan 14, 2002
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I have always wondered why we try to get the fat, smooth lead sound out of the bridge pickup when the neck pickup just gives it away, and why we don't use the bridge pickup for clean rhythm work with good string separation and note definition. I blame jazz. So, using this model (which I have in the studio, but not in a band) I don't think a stronger neck pickup is the end of the world. Especially today with all the pedals doing the distortion / tone shaping work for us that we used to have to get from running the amp near oblivion.
 

somebodyelseuk

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Jun 10, 2020
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If the two pickups are out of phase, the reading in the middle position..both pickups in circuit…will have a lower resistance reading than either pickup alone. In phase would result in a resistance greater than either pickup alone.
This ^ is wrong.
If they're parallel, you get a lower reading, higher when they're in series.
Phase has no relevance to resistance readings.
 
Last edited:

Wilko

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If the two pickups are out of phase, the reading in the middle position..both pickups in circuit…will have a lower resistance reading than either pickup alone. In phase would result in a resistance greater than either pickup alone.
I gotta test that as there is no reason the would be different as the coils are the same and DC doesn’t have phase…
 

Wally

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I pulled out my ‘66 ES345, which has pickups that are OOP. The bridge measures 7.77k DCR. The neck measures 7.31kDCR. In the middle position the DCR is 3.85k……or…have people been misinformed that the stereo Gibsons with that thinner, weaker middle position sound are OOP…..and they are actually paralleled??? If so, I stand corrected. My bad for accepting what I have read about these guitars.
 

Wilko

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…..and they are actually paralleled??? If so, I stand corrected. My bad for accepting what I have read about these guitars.
That would completely make sense. Same as speakers. series vs parallel.
 

Wally

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Okay, using a meter and a magnetic piece I tested the pickups in my ES345 for phase. The pickups show to be in phase…each pickup’s measurement jumps up in resistance temporarily when the screwdriver is removed fr9m the polepiece. So, I
Take that to mean that what has been called an OOP situation with such guitars in the middle position is actually parallel???.
Fwiw, a Strat exhibits the same results. All three pickups are in phase, but the 2 and 4 positions are weaker than the pickups alone….just as in the 345. Parallel wiring….and due to the RWRP of that middle pickup, the combinations are humbucking.
Thanks for making me look into this.
 

somebodyelseuk

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I pulled out my ‘66 ES345, which has pickups that are OOP. The bridge measures 7.77k DCR. The neck measures 7.31kDCR. In the middle position the DCR is 3.85k……or…have people been misinformed that the stereo Gibsons with that thinner, weaker middle position sound are OOP…..and they are actually paralleled??? If so, I stand corrected. My bad for accepting what I have read about these guitars.
Yes and no. They will be wired parallel - the majority of guitars are, Danelectro are one exception - but they are also wired out of phase.
The phase does not affect the resistance readings, but it does affect the sound. Series vs parallel affects the readings, and also affects the sound, but it's not responsible for the thin OOT phase sound vs the normal 'in phase' sound.
 

jimi O'Connor

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Oct 22, 2022
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Yes ...Agree, My 1973 Page Madison Square Garden sets can have DCR +/- 10%..I can get still get consistent product..What needs to be consistent are my magnets.If that supply dries up I'm in trouble .I get asked all the time about my magnets. I won't sell them on their own..
The DCR tells me the pickup is not 'open circuit'.. not much else
Whats the secret with the magnets Bryan?
 
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