Jimmy Page, 1958 Bursts, Heartbreaker, TSRTS

[325-at-2pm]

First of all, I always thought the Jimmy Page was using a 1958 LesPaul in the movie The Song Remains the Same? With all of the hype going on regarding the recent New releases, can someone confirm which guitar he is mainly using in TSRTS?

Secondly, has anyone ever come across audio and/or video of the complete Madison Square Garden show/shows from the movie with the editing and story lines?

In particular, I've always been interested in a complete version of the song Heartbreaker which is screwed up by the editing. It seems like one of Jimmy's hotest versions of the song if not for all edits to the story line about them getting ripped off.

Can anyone help me dial in on a complete unedited version of that night's recordings????????

Anyone else ever think about this? There's one part before the solo where Jimmy is skipping towards a camera that's on the floor level of the stage where HE'S RIPPING THE WOOD OFF OF THE FINGERBOARD!!

I'd love to hear all of it. What do you guys think?

 

[Ed Driscoll]

325-at-2pm,

Do you have the new How The West Was Won live CD? There's a pretty nifty (unedited) version of "Heartbreaker" in there.

And I like how Page drops the one handed "scroll up the fretboard riff" from "Heartbreaker" into his break on "Trampled Underfoot" in the new DVD--talk about cut and paste, except it worked pretty well.

Ed

 

[jc2]

i would very much like to see TSRTS remastered and a third disc added with the remaining setlist on it . i never understood the criticism against TSRTS. i think it has the definitive versions of every song on it. as much as i like "how the west was won", every track that they have in common is better on TSRST.

 

[325-at-2pm]

Ed:

Yes, I got both the new DVDs and the CDs. The material is certainly great in the newly released versions.

For some reason Heartbreaker in TSRTS just seems to me to be really HOT, but unfortunately CHOPPED and TRUNCATED!

Of course when there is known audio and video for a performance, as we all know the chances of having bootlegs is usually 50% or more. That's what I'm hoping for in this case because I'm betting that the complete TSRTS must be TOTALLY HOT....

 

[pauldeluxe]

There are soundboard bootlegs of the Madison Square Garden shows from 1973, one of which I have on vinyl. Personally, though, I've never ranked that version of Heartbreaker among my favorites. Sorry, just a personal opinion.

I've got nearly every frame of video ever shot of Jimmy Page and I've never heard of anyone that has outtake footage from the Garden shows, apart from that pretty lame tape of the different edits of Song Remains the Same/Rain Song/Moby Dick. It's also got some outtake shots of the crowds mingling outside the Garden.

I'll agree with the others regarding How the West Was Won. If you're looking for great audio from that period, that's a fantastic set.

If you're into Heartbreaker, check out Berkley Sept 14, 1971 and the LA Forum June 21, 1977. Those are two pretty outstanding versions.

 

[Ed Driscoll]

i would very much like to see TSRTS remastered and a third disc added with the remaining setlist on it . i never understood the criticism against TSRTS. i think it has the definitive versions of every song on it. as much as i like "how the west was won", every track that they have in common is better on TSRST.

I'd love to see TSRTS remastered with 5.1 sound--or even Dolby EX, so Page could have lots of fun panning his violin bow solo! They could also include the MSG scenes from the new DVD, along with say a director's commentary track, and/or commentary from the three surviving band members (and maybe even Eddie Kramer), and still photos of the gigs in a bonus section.

Personally though, I wouldn't call those tracks the definitive version of those songs. TSRST is nowhere near as flat sounding as its detractors make it out to be, but HTWW clearly captures better performances of those songs. The audio on TSRTS in my book is a recording of group of professionals playing out the last dates on a tour. HTWW sounds like a still-hungry group on fire.

Ed

 

[jc2]

rock n' roll sounds much more explosive to my ears on TSRST than HTWWW and dazed and confused is loaded with brilliant playing. far,far superior to the disjointed HTWWW version. on the other hand, it was probably pieced together from the 3 shows. in any case its the version i am so used to and anything else seems out of place to me.

 

[Wilko]

About his guitar, Almost all of the footage shows him playing his #1, the '59 (often thought to be a '58, but it had double white in the bridge). the 58 is hardly ever seen.

 

[Ed A]

Hey Ed, me and my buddies have been debating and discussing this also lately... TSRTS vs. HTWWW... One of my friends keeps telling me how the performances in Song Remains are MILES above the '72 shows. Granted there was some brilliant things going on in Dazed by '73 but overall I told him I dont agree and that he's being swayed by the atmosphere and excitement of the recordings....

Normally Ill choose '72 Zep over '73 anytime. For a couple reasons. Mostly because Plants ability to hit the high notes really took a nosedive from '72 to '73 and it was a great year for the acoustic set and the Whole Lotta Love medleys. Not to mention, the last year for Immigrant and Bring It On Home...

But my biggest beef with How the West Was Won is the recording itself. I dont think it does the gig justice. Im not talking about the recording quality, Im talking about the ambience of the recording. The Song Remains has a very live, nasty and exciting sound to it. It feels like your in the 10th row. The '72 triple CD sounds dead in comparison. To me it sounds like a glorified soundboard. Even though Plant had a better voice in '72 he SOUNDS more exciting in '73. Pages guitar sounds so alive in '73, Celebration Day is manic! Even though I like his tone in '72 as much or more I dont think it sounds as ripping and rude (because of the recording, not him).... I was at the '72 and '73 tours and I wish the mood of the '72 shows would have come across better on the CDs. Not enough room ambience!

Obviously Im nitpicking and very thankful that we even got this release but Im convinced if How the West was recorded similar as the Song Remains, it would be that much more enjoyable...

 

[Ed Driscoll]

Ed,

Obviously Im nitpicking and very thankful that we even got this release but Im convinced if How the West was recorded similar as the Song Remains, it would be that much more enjoyable...

When you say "recorded", I assume what you really mean is mixed--weren't both gigs essientially recorded in the same fashion? (In fact, didn't Eddie Kramer do the actual live recording on both TSRTS and HTWWW?)

But I agree that HTWWW sounds more clinical--there's less audience noise, and while I've read that Pro Tools (or the like) was used to clean up the odd error or two, the whole CD sound almost like it was digitally recorded from the start--it's that pristine.

However, they're both good recordings, and while some songs overlap, there's enough stuff exclusive to TSRTS to make it a very different CD, and a nice way to alternate live Zep. Throw in the BBC live stuff, and that's a whole lot of early-ish Zep.

Now if only Page would break out Pro Tools and start assembling a double live CD of Knebworth, or any of the later-period Zep stuff!

Ed

 

[Ed A]

When you say "recorded", I assume what you really mean is mixed--weren't both gigs essientially recorded in the same fashion? (In fact, didn't Eddie Kramer do the actual live recording on both TSRTS and HTWWW?)

My buddy Tony was at the after premiere party in NYC and spoke at length with Kevin Shirley who worked on this stuff with Page. Apparently the original recording of the '72 stuff, although multitracked, was very difficult to work with. If you listen to the Ocean on the DVD, Shirley did a great job with that and it sounds similar and very alive, like the other Song Remains stuff. So I can only assume that how the band was put down to tape by Kramer was a bit different from '72 to '73.

 

[blustrat95]

I think Page switches bursts during Whole Lotta Love, while Plant is doing his "boogiechillun" vocals.

 

[Wilko]

And isn't that when he's got the red Deluxe?

 

[BillyBling]

rock n' roll sounds much more explosive to my ears on TSRST than HTWWW and dazed and confused is loaded with brilliant playing. far,far superior to the disjointed HTWWW version.

Totally.

 

[blustrat95]

You got me there, Wilko, I'd have to watch it again to be really sure.

 

[KennyY]

325-at-2pm,

Do you have the new How The West Was Won live CD? There's a pretty nifty (unedited) version of "Heartbreaker" in there.

And I like how Page drops the one handed "scroll up the fretboard riff" from "Heartbreaker" into his break on "Trampled Underfoot" in the new DVD--talk about cut and paste, except it worked pretty well.

Ed

Hey Ed,

Check this site out.

http://www.simplyled.net/thegardentapes.html

There were some edits by Jimmy Page on the new DVD and 3 CD Set. The releases are great, but I'm sort of bummed that Jimmy didn't leave the peformances as is.

Ken

 

[Wilko]

Blustrat,
I don't know...I was asking...

I know there is a quick shot of the red deluxe at the end....weird edit, there was no time to change guitars. His shirt may even be different.

I'd have to watch it again myself. I don't remember noticing the '58 at all in TSRTS

 

[Ed Driscoll]

Ken,

http://www.simplyled.net/thegardentapes.html

There were some edits by Jimmy Page on the new DVD and 3 CD Set. The releases are great, but I'm sort of bummed that Jimmy didn't leave the peformances as is.

I've seen that site before (although he didn't have the DVD info in there last time I looked--thanks for the link!); it's what prompted me to mention the use of Pro Tools and sliding things around above.

I don't mind that stuff. Page is trying to make 30 year old live recordings compete with the material that's being put out today, and it's got to last forever. Heck, we're still listening to TSRTS, and that was released 25 years ago! So I understand fully his rationale for editing performances together, and sliding parts around until everything sounds as tight as possible.

I can see where some people would get upset about this, but cleaning up live performances on rock recordings is certainly nothing new. Frankly, I'd do the same thing if I were in his shoes. (Of course, I'm also the guy who just wrote a piece praising pitch correction. I can understand how YMMV when it comes to these techniques.)

Ed

 

[blustrat95]

Well, the 58 has the uncovered bridge humbucker - and I AM pretty sure, even though I didn't dig up the tape - that there were no shots of any uncovered humbuckers in TSRTS. So I'm thinking you're right about that red deluxe, Wilko. I was just reading stuff from that link that KennY posted - they point out some serious continuity errors that don't make this any easier.
Now I have a nice excuse to watch that part of the movie again - research! Got to do dinner & a movie first though.

 

[BillyBling]

Its time to watch TSRTS again...........its better than Sex in the City.