Middle Pickup Orientation on 3-Pickup Guitars

[yss]

I have a '96 Swtichmaster with the middle humbucker's polepieces oriented towards the neck rather than the bridge. I'm pretty certain it came like that from the factory (I bought the guitar used). But I've also seen some Switchmasters with the middle pickup's polepieces toward the bridge. My Google image search turned up about half one way, half the other. Does anyone know what the "right" orientation is? Or maybe there isn't a right way?

This would apply to 3-pickup Les Paul Customs, too, I imagine.

 

[j45]

I'd say isn't. I wouldn't think with the way a humbucker is constructed that it would make any difference in the phasing either way. Some other pickups maybe but a humbucker to me sounds pretty much the same either direction and in conjunction with another pickup. Unless someone took the cover off and flipped the magnets over it should phase and sound the same either way. I've seen from factory in both directions.

 

[wernerg]

Take a look at Mike Slub's '58 3-pickup Black Beauty (on his public Lilypix site). From the wear on the pickup covers, it's clear that originally, the middle pickup was "facing" towards the neck, and now is facing towards the bridge.

According to Mike, "I turned the middle pickup. Seems to help thicken up the "out of phase" sound when the middle position on the selector switch is selected (middle and bridge pickup). Don't ask me why it works - it just does!"

 

[j45]

Skeptical, I've turned quite a few with very little if not nothing all in difference but I do trust Mike. I'm sure there can be an explanation.

 

[mikeslub]

Skeptical, I've turned quite a few with very little if not nothing all in difference but I do trust Mike. I'm sure there can be an explanation.

Everything sounds better after a glass of wine! :salude

 

[JRW8214@AOL.COM]

I turned mine toward the bridge on my LP Custom. I read once on here someone recommended doing that, and changing the wiring. I cant remember if it was from series to prallel or from parellel to series. Id like to try it but i dont know how to do the wiring.

 

[Wally]

I would think that IF the polepieces were adjusted 'correctly', the pickups sonics would be changed simply due to those polepieces proximity to the segment of the string that they are sensing. That is, the adjustable polepieces would be sensing a slightly different segment of the string....and the tonality of the soincs changes depending on the segment of the string that is being sensed. I would think that if the polepieces were left 'flat' as when the picup was new...not adjusted....that there would be very little change as long as the wiring is left as is.
The '58 ES-5 that I briefly owned had the middle p-up's adjustable polepieces nearer the neck.

Re: that '58 ES-5......the day I sold it at a show, the dealer marked the guitar as a 1960 and put a bigger price on it. I have always wondered why he did that....because the number clearly dated the guitar. Could it be that the possibility that there were some white coils in those PAF's drove him to do that??? Or...is there something I don't know about '58 numbers on 1960
ES-5's???? I do know that he chased me and that 25 pound coffin case that the guitar was in around that show until I sold it to him. I had told my friend who was with me that the first dealer that saw that case would be asking 'What's in that?" THat dealer's eyes lit up when he saw that monstrosity of a case. LOL.....sorry to go off on a tangent.....

 

[Gold Tone]

I would think that IF the polepieces were adjusted 'correctly', the pickups sonics would be changed simply due to those polepieces proximity to the segment of the string that they are sensing. That is, the adjustable polepieces would be sensing a slightly different segment of the string....and the tonality of the soincs changes depending on the segment of the string that is being sensed. I would think that if the polepieces were left 'flat' as when the picup was new...not adjusted....that there would be very little change as long as the wiring is left as is..

This exactly

 

[Gold Tone]

...and middle pickup magnets were never reversed at factory as Internet fodder would have you believe

 

[wernerg]

...and middle pickup magnets were never reversed at factory as Internet fodder would have you believe

So the "middle position" on a vintage 3-pickup Custom is not analogous to the "Greeny Mod"?

If not, what accounts for the "wimpy" sound? If the polarities of the two pickups are aligned, why doesn't it sound more like the neck and bridge pickups together?

 

[Gold Tone]

Magnets in close proximity interact with each other. It's simply the pickups being so near each other affecting each others magnetic field.

On a two humbucker guitar the pickups are far enough apart to have not the same interaction between magnets.

My own 3 pickup LP Custom has all 3 pickups with magnets oriented the same way. I get that nasal out of phase honk like mad. DEAD on tone for Cream Disraeli Gears album too!

 

[wernerg]

Magnets in close proximity interact with each other. It's simply the pickups being so near each other affecting each others magnetic field.
...

thanks for the explanation - so, on a humbucker Es-5 Switchmaster, I understand there is a switch position that has all three pickups turned on, can anyone describe the sound? Super-wimpy?

 

[Gold Tone]

Good question...I'd like to know too. Never owning a Switchmaster (but lusting for one for years...decades) I'm very intrigued by that 3 pup selector position. I expect it could go either way...thin and phasey or thick and full.

 

[mikeslub]

thanks for the explanation - so, on a humbucker Es-5 Switchmaster, I understand there is a switch position that has all three pickups turned on, can anyone describe the sound? Super-wimpy?

No, my Switchmaster sounds great with all three pickups engaged. Very full sounding.

I respectfully disagree with the assertion above. The middle and bridge pickups on a vintage Custom are out of phase.

To remind myself, I just pulled out my 1989 35th Anniversary LP Custom and my Ace Frehley Custom, both 3-pickup. While there is a hint of honk with the middle and bridge pickups on, they are far from thin sounding or quacky, and no volume loss like on the middle position of my vintage LP Custom. :hank

1989 35th Anniversary Custom:

Custom Shop Ace Frehley:

 

[J.D.]

I'm not understanding how they could be out of phase, as the pickups all have the same wiring and polarity:

http://images.gibson.com/Lifestyle/Support/Files/Schematics/LPCustom3PU.PDF

 

[mikeslub]

Read Rob Lawrence's book, Les Paul Legacy, page 164. Magnet in the middle pickup reversed on vintage Customs. :hank

1958 LP Custom:

 

[j45]

"when Seth Lover first designed the humbucker, he made the first few without the screw adjustable pole pieces, as he KNEW they served no real purpose...Ted McCarty, of Gibson, told Lover that he wanted adjustable pole pieces in the new design...because the older DeArmond pickups had them, as did the P90's, and people would think they were being cheated if their latest and greatest pickup did not have them. They all have them. They serve no actual purpose, but people-myself included - have spent time adjusting them trying to get a "perfect sound".


Myself included as well (and convinced I did something) but this is pretty much the deal. Turn them either way... regardless of pole height, not enough difference to matter IME.

 

[Gold Tone]

I respectfully disagree with the assertion above. The middle and bridge pickups on a vintage Custom are out of phase

Always the gentleman!

I really believe that any misunderstanding of this is centered around what people are hearing and how they are describing it. Absolutely it is an out of phase sound, but it's not because the magnets are reversed. The tone is very similar to the effect of flipping the magnet but not quit the same. There is a significant amount of interaction between the magnetic fields of the middle and bridge pickups that subsequently has an effect on the tone when both are engaged.

Were there guitars with the middle pickup magnet flipped from the factory...of course there must have been...by coincidence

That Rob Lawrence book is fantastic, great info and pictures...I'm not sure that paragraph he wrote at the bottom of pg164 is not just his own understanding of the phenomenon which he went on to say is due to a magnet flip.

Sure the stereo variatone guitars did this in their pickup switching design idea...but the Les Paul was not a Gibson "flagship" or company focus at the time, surely any with middle pickup magnet flipped were by coincidence.

My '57 Custom has all 3 pickups with magnets in the same orientation...the middle and bridge together are thinner, lower volume, and have a quack.

The difference you are hearing in your Ace and your vintage custom of course is comparing guitars with different pickups (vintage PAF vs modern Gibson no less!), different pickup heights, different polepiece hieghts, maple cap vs all mahogany body, old wood vs new, etc, etc, etc

Not arguing with you, hopefully seeing this as a discussion.





.

 

[j45]

Always the gentleman!

Good call.... watching Mike for years has been a huge influence on my own internet etiquette.

 

[Gold Tone]

He never gets his "dander up", always focused on the topic and guitars.