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NGD, '61? Epiphone Sheraton, could use expert pairs of eyes!

deytookerjaabs

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I'm so happy right now. I walked into Sam Ash and they had this listed as a "1965 Epiphone Sheraton" in player grade condition. Headstock repair, crazy pickup swap, non-original bigsby, swapped tuners, but hey..not a full refin! I plugged her in and started swingin' some of that old country bag of stuff I've learned the past few years, it stayed in tune even though it was strung incorrectly, no low frets, neck seemed straight, ......It's like something out of a dream for me.

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I noticed the New York neck right away (big fan of sheratons, huge fan of leon rhodes) and could've sworn those were gone by '62, anyways, got it home for cheaper than a 335 studio model, hehe, then double checked photos/resources online.

Here's the funky thing, I don't know what/when these pickups were made but they look old. I'm familiar with CC pickups but those were built differently, this just looks like some plain old blade/p90 and the other pickup I'm also clueless about. They sound nifty though, the neck could use a little more beef to it but I'm too elated to think about that at the moment. Took some pics while I cleaned up the guitar, cleaned frets, notched new set of saddles, this thing had been swamping around for quite a while. The case awoke my mold/mildew allergies big time, still sneezing hours later!

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The other detail is the pickguard isn't cut for New York pickups or mini hums. It looks like it's cut for the current or very similar pickups and it sure doesn't look like any kind of repro/aftermarket:

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Anyone seen any of this stuff before?
 

Frost

Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2004
Messages
161
Congratulations on the beautiful Sheraton. Sorry, I've never seen a Charlie Christianson pickup on a Kalamazoo Epiphone. Sounds like you got over on Sam Ash pretty good! Sheratons are fantastic guitars. I'm proud to own a 1967 Blond Sheraton, myself.

Take care,

Heiko
 

Kris Ford

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Jan 6, 2007
Messages
4,003
Nicely done.

That bridge pickup is a Bill Lawrence L-510R..
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From Bill Lawrence:
"The Lawrence Sound Research (LSR) L-510 was born in 1981, when, at the request of Ronnie Montrose, Bill Lawrence created a cleaner version of the L-500L and L-500R. These new cleaner L-500's were labeled L-510L and L-510R and featured chrome housings and two 2.150 inch long, curved blades, much like the L-500's.

However, these did not become very successful as many stuck with the L-500's, not realizing the close design lineage. To avoid confusion, the L-500 and L-510 lineups were eventually merged, with the L-510L becoming the new L-500L (the original L-500L would be renamed the L-500XL) and the L-510R being dropped. By the end of '81 the L-510 was no more.
"
 

deytookerjaabs

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 6, 2016
Messages
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Nicely done.

That bridge pickup is a Bill Lawrence L-510R..
$_1.JPG

From Bill Lawrence:
"The Lawrence Sound Research (LSR) L-510 was born in 1981, when, at the request of Ronnie Montrose, Bill Lawrence created a cleaner version of the L-500L and L-500R. These new cleaner L-500's were labeled L-510L and L-510R and featured chrome housings and two 2.150 inch long, curved blades, much like the L-500's.

However, these did not become very successful as many stuck with the L-500's, not realizing the close design lineage. To avoid confusion, the L-500 and L-510 lineups were eventually merged, with the L-510L becoming the new L-500L (the original L-500L would be renamed the L-500XL) and the L-510R being dropped. By the end of '81 the L-510 was no more.
"


Thanks! Here I thought I was pretty familiar with Lawrence's pickups. :hee Learn something new every day.
 

JimR56

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Joined
Oct 20, 2012
Messages
588
Wow, very interesting guitar you scored there! As rare as these early Sheratons are, I have to admit that it makes me a little sad to see all the mods, but whatever- it's unique, and in a cool way. Never seen one with a CC.

First of all, you seem to know your stuff pretty well, but I'll chime in anyway. You're clearly in the ballpark with the estimate of 1961. Could be slightly earlier I suppose. It doesn't have the NY type vol/tone knobs (though it may have originally), so that also points more toward your date. Who knows if it had NY pups or minihums. Got a serial #?

I own a '62, with the mahogany neck, also with the short headstock but with the thinner/modern "Epiphone" logo.

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The CC looks like it could have come from a steel guitar. I'd love to hear what it sounds like in your guitar!

The pickguard does look pretty old... makes you wonder how long ago that CC was actually put in. The way it's cracking appears unusual to me (hard to explain, but the photo showing the front of it confuses me... almost looks like somebody tried to repair it somehow). Also, is it just me, or does the "E" logo on the guard appear to have a strip of m.o.p. or abalone in the center? Anyway, the thing I'd be concerned about is if that guard starts to crystalize and starts releasing that nasty gas that corrodes metal surfaces.

I would be interested in seeing some close-ups of your fingerboard inlays. That's one thing I like to examine on vintage Sheratons, as some of them have really nice abalone inserts.

Here's a shot of mine:
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62SheratonVRfboard.jpg


Edit: forgot to ask you an important question. What's the nut width on yours? Mine is close to 1 3/4"

Also, in case you hadn't seen it: https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...960s-epiphone-sheratons.954139/#post-11411759
 

deytookerjaabs

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Thanks for the info Jim! The inlays, especially the triangle are beauties as is the board. I know these were a bit more expensive than ES355's when new! I'll try to get better pics in the daylight tomorrow.


It's REALLY WEIRD that I got this guitar. Leon Rhodes (and The Big E) is one of the cats who got me into country playing after years & years of mostly rock/blues/jazz/fusion so I've transcribed a lot of Troubadour stuff. Thus to say, always thought "one day" I might score a real Sheraton. After some time in the wood shed with the western swing stuff I figured it was a good time to move to Nashville...which we did back in August. Then, I run into this thing at a big box store where they have it listed as a '65 cheaper than a ES335 studio?

Very odd, maybe the guitar found me?

From past research and my days teaching at a vintage shop I remember NY Epi's and subsequent highest end Gibson Epi's archtops having seemingly identical necks. Walter Carter said he's "not so sure the necks were from New York but that's what Ted said" I'd say it's a reach to think Gibson reverse engineered the neck angle, radius, nut width, laminate block, and veneer just to make them for 2 years on certain guitars! :hee I think it's a 14 degree headstock, and a 14 inch radius too. It looks like the work was done to the pickguard if not by gibson by someone who knew the process and had the materials not long after the guitar was built. The serial is actually written, if you look real close, on the piece of tape that's on the back. Also, the serial is stamped into the headstock which points to write around that transition period...31879 I think.

Walter also mentioned Hank Garland and others would have their guitars modded or built to fit CC pickups around that time, so it was an idea that was out there. The pickguard being cut like so points to it having been fitted with a full size 'bucker too. If it were the 60's...you know that means, and they probably threw it out when the BL's were swapped in! Oh well. They both do the job really well if you're into those early country swing tones so I'm happy. Lots of guys want to turn old guitars into something they aren't because it's not what their hero's played, not me, I bought it for what was built to do in the first place so you won't being seeing any "throbaks" in there anytime soon I'm afraid :)

The other odd thing is the finish, the fellas at Carter's didn't think it was refinished and I don't either but the color is closer to later 60's Sheratons, I forget the name of the finish, almost "iced tea" but not quite, a little warmer. That's another detail out of left field. Also, I'm not sure what's going on with the E on the guard or why they added that black layer. Yet, it wasn't amateur hour, unlike the pickup routes!

The nut comes out to about 1.71 on the calipers so safe to give or take 1 3/4 after almost 6 decades?




This guitar also gives me more appreciation for not only the Japanese models but also the early Koreans which I've owned in the past and started threads about online no less with details etc. Here's a pic of the tenon are out of the korean model I used to have:

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The binding is real laminates, tight joint, nice mahogany block, nice top veneers, inlays were top notch, frets bound. They only made them that well for so many years though, haha. But, you can tell they were going off a real sheraton, it wasn't some spruced up 335! All the angles/dimensions from the neck to the body and even neck carve are nearly identical. Good Job Peerless.


I'll have to check out that TGP thread.
 

Kris Ford

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The CC looks like it could have come from a steel guitar. I'd love to hear what it sounds like in your guitar!

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(Thanks to EE for the pics!:salude)
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:hmm
These have poles instead of a blade..but that cover looks very similar..
 

JimR56

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Oct 20, 2012
Messages
588
With regard to the finish, I don't see anything to make me doubt it's original (1961, and by the way your serial number does point to '61). It may have had a bit more red in it originally (many early ones do), but it could have faded from light exposure. The shading- especially up in the cutaway areas (front and rear) is too perfect for a refin, imo. Refins on sunbursts are usually pretty easy to detect with the naked eye when one has enough experience. * Another thing about sunbursts is that the coloring was never 100% consistent in any given period of time. Bottom line... it simply looks too "right" to be wrong.

* I've seen dozens of original-run Sheratons. When I was shopping for mine, and for all of the years since, I have enjoyed scouring the web for pics, many of which I've saved to my hard drive. The gear page thread I linked used to have dozens of photos, but unfortunately a lot of people have allowed their photo links to die. :## It just bugs me, because that thread was/is a really good source of info on vintage Sheratons.

As far as the name of the shade on yours, I'm not sure what name you might be trying to think of... there was "Argentine Gray", but this doesn't look like that. Tobacco... Viceroy... "Antique"... I dunno. The years are starting to take a toll on my brain now. :)

So, one thing that I completely glossed over yesterday was the binding (?) on your f-holes!! Or are they just painted? It looks like binding. I'd have to go through my photo files again, but I can't remember seeing a Sheraton with bound f-holes. A custom order? If so, that's a pretty nice added coolness factor, imo.

Hope to see more pics of this cool tone machine! :salude
 

deytookerjaabs

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With regard to the finish, I don't see anything to make me doubt it's original (1961, and by the way your serial number does point to '61). It may have had a bit more red in it originally (many early ones do), but it could have faded from light exposure. The shading- especially up in the cutaway areas (front and rear) is too perfect for a refin, imo. Refins on sunbursts are usually pretty easy to detect with the naked eye when one has enough experience. * Another thing about sunbursts is that the coloring was never 100% consistent in any given period of time. Bottom line... it simply looks too "right" to be wrong.

* I've seen dozens of original-run Sheratons. When I was shopping for mine, and for all of the years since, I have enjoyed scouring the web for pics, many of which I've saved to my hard drive. The gear page thread I linked used to have dozens of photos, but unfortunately a lot of people have allowed their photo links to die. :## It just bugs me, because that thread was/is a really good source of info on vintage Sheratons.

As far as the name of the shade on yours, I'm not sure what name you might be trying to think of... there was "Argentine Gray", but this doesn't look like that. Tobacco... Viceroy... "Antique"... I dunno. The years are starting to take a toll on my brain now. :)

So, one thing that I completely glossed over yesterday was the binding (?) on your f-holes!! Or are they just painted? It looks like binding. I'd have to go through my photo files again, but I can't remember seeing a Sheraton with bound f-holes. A custom order? If so, that's a pretty nice added coolness factor, imo.

Hope to see more pics of this cool tone machine! :salude



When we get a sunny day I'll try get some pics outside and use the missus phone since her's isn't ancient (by today's standards). The pic didn't show it too well but the finish has a milky/olive hue to it in person whereas the few period-similar tobacco-like Epi's I've seen (just archtops) the clear areas were a lot more...clear? Yeah, could just be variances in the old school kalamazoo factory conditions. It wasn't until you posted the production totals in the TGP thread that the light bulb went on for me realize "that's why nobody knows much about them." It's also probably why we can expect inconsistency.

I had no idea they usually didn't come with f-hole binding, yep, these are bound! Crazy. The rim is fairly thin too, about 1.60" On another thread a fella said he got a brand new p90 ES135 in the early 90's from Gibson and his pickup routes "looked like they were done by an angry beaver" and inside it had a "335 dot" sticker, lol.



The blade on CC pickups varied and the "poles" are actually just cuts into the blade I believe:

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some had that black layer in the binding:

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Since they were usually in archtops they often had those unsightly bracket contraptions to mount/adjust them. Take a look at that second pic, notice the genius design? They just hack the one magnet in half where the wire comes out, just like mine, at first I thought "did that thing break?" :hee I can see the new guy trying to assemble one "Hey, bob, how do you get this magnet to sit flush?" "You dummy, get the hammer and chop it in half"

You know what us vintage fans call that? Character.


Someone just pointed out something else funky...inlays past the 15th fret, haven't seen another one like that yet.
 
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JimR56

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Messages
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Interesting about the "milky olive". I'm not really picking that up in your photos, but now I wonder... the "Argentine Grey" finish could be described that way.

Had not noticed the extra inlays on the board, either. Sheesh, I need to open my eyes! :##More evidence that you may have a custom ordered guitar there. Very cool.

When it comes to CC pickups, I've been studying those for many years (or at least trying, since info can be hard to find) . I have owned three Gibson archtops with CC's over the years. Here's the one I still own, a 1966 custom order L5, which I got in 2004.

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Here's a discussion thread on yet another guitar forum which has a lot of CC info, and where I got into quite a bit of detail about my love of their sound:
http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34796
 

deytookerjaabs

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Here's some more pics:

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Wow, that thread is huge, didn't realize the pickup had such an audience!
 
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deytookerjaabs

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Messages
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61epicas.jpg


IMO, the finish reminds me of these ^^ funky Casino's ('61). Either it was intentional or it just so happened to be the same guy running the spray gun on those particular days!
 

JimR56

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Messages
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Here's some more pics
Thanks! The finish looks great to my eye. I've seen plenty of early Epi's that look similar.

Wow, that thread is huge, didn't realize the pickup had such an audience!
Well, it was of course huge back in the golden years of mainstream jazz guitar, and that legacy carried on for a long time. It's less popular now in its original usage, but that's partly because they changed/stopped production. Now that you're in "the club", you've got some research to do. :) Hank Garland of course is one icon who helped keep them popular, and I could have seen him playing your guitar!
 

JimR56

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It's not just that they went beyond the 15th, it's that they put them at 17, 20 and 22 (atypical positions) instead of 17, 19, and 21.
 

JimR56

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I just went through my saved vintage Sheraton photos (a few dozen guitars), and I only found two that had inlays beyond the 15th fret. One is a 1967 example that has them added at frets 17, 19 and 21; the other is a 1968 that has one added at the 17th. Fwiw.
 

Kris Ford

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Looks like you got a Gibson case with it too..my favorite variety..purple lined.:teeth
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76 Les Paul case and '76 SG case.
 

deytookerjaabs

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It's not just that they went beyond the 15th, it's that they put them at 17, 20 and 22 (atypical positions) instead of 17, 19, and 21.


Yeah, what I meant by improvising is maybe somebody made an "oops" and they tried to make it look okay, or again, perhaps it was intentional. I'm going to shoot a few messages around to see if anyone in the area has seen it. Leon Rhodes has a FB page, there's supposed to be an amazing archive at the country music hall of fame but they let a few people go who did most of the work there. As we know, these guitars were not cheap and this one they spent even more $$ on so I'd guess there's some photos around. Plus those initials/numbers? Stamped into the guard and in cursive it looks like someone scratched the name "lemmeo jones" ....


Yep, Kris, that purple fits right in with my '72 Custom's purple case, haha. That's the color of royalty, crown royal that is. :spabout
 
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