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R6 Jaeger Make Over

Revolver1

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Joined
Feb 7, 2024
Messages
340
O.K so this Is very interesting indeed and entering the realms of controversy perhaps.... Love it! I may be very wrong here but I was under the Impression Cellulose was an organic based material? Or at least closer in relation to wood than plastic.... Not 100% sure there... Cellulose being the key word here.

I always thought the plastisizer's were added to make the previously used brittle lacquer more hard wearing and less susceptible to checking and damage. I see it as adding a plastic to an otherwise glass like brittle finish to make it more shock proof and generally would have been seen as a better commercial finish. Less complaints. Again why poly finishes were later seen as the future for guitar finishing.

That would have been of course if we hadn't been here now looking back and questioning if they actually got it right in the second place.

I would imagine the choice for the original finish would have been exactly the same as would have been used on any piece of well made furniture of the time, I don't think the benefits of checking were realised in the past. It was probably seen as a fault that needed to be rectified. Rather than a tonal benefit or artistically a thing of beauty. Just trying to put it in perspective.

I still believe that under or subjected to the right conditions even a highly plastisized finish would check or let's call it what it really is, "crack".

I have a recollection of the finish being revised back in the late 90's and it was a sales point that I bought into at the time. The Classic I baught definitely had a thinner skin than the 2001 standard I had but both guitars were huge improvements on where things had come from but nothing compared to where the Historics are at now.
 

Revolver1

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Feb 7, 2024
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340
Yeah, just realised I'm pretty much in agreement with all the points you make Subliminal. ?????
 

Revolver1

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Feb 7, 2024
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340
The 90's were definitely the beginning of the revival that has brought Gibson back to it's former glory's. I remember first hand the excitement of the change in direction and the uncontrollable lust I was consumed with.
 

Revolver1

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Feb 7, 2024
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340

Theres a section "Early work on Nitration of Cellulose" and it says the early cellulose was derived from starch or wood fiber. So it's organic and therefore disolves in solvent.

I think the confusion with plastic may be celluloid as used for the inlays.

Plastic is derived from Petroleum Oil.

I think we all had it right about the plastisizer, that this was added to the Nitrocellulose to produce a harder wearing more flexible finish that could be sprayed on thicker.
 

Revolver1

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Feb 7, 2024
Messages
340
I think that's definitely the way it went though.

50's - thinnest finish.

70's - thickest with more plastisizer added for durability and ease of application.

90's onward - a compromise, somewhere between the two.

But as shown, given the right combination of extream conditions even the 70's lacquer will crack and check.

I think as time has gone on the thinner finishes were applied to the higher end instruments like the Historics and not the USA Standards. If we think back to what Florian was saying its highly skilled and labour intensive to achieve a thin finish and therefore more expensive to produce.
 
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N

NINFNM

Guest
Thinnest finishes were applied in the Norlin era. Most of them were thinner than in the 50s and also thinner than today. It was a cost saving practice.
Thickest I've seen are those of the 2010's, even on historics. Just check how thick looks the finish on those heavy aged examples, and compare that to sunburst Norlins, some of them wear out almost like a current "faded" model.

29c27ef1b2904a008119d7a959affe7e.jpgFB_IMG_1713385796165.jpg
 
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Revolver1

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Feb 7, 2024
Messages
340
A nice little interlude, a break from the aging to keep things fresh. Hand rolling the binding....

" I'm hand rolling the binding edges for that super smooth feeling of an old, beloved and well played guitar.

First I'm using a small scraper. Then I file the scraped binding round. Even the nibs and the small parts of the fret which is blank. For this I use a fret end file, then sanding and buffing to a finish. The last two pictures are before and after. "









 

charliechitlins

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Joined
Nov 16, 2021
Messages
1,109
This thread makes my head spin.
So many posts and so much minutiae.
It seems to me, given the time, money (air fare!)and patience necessary to accomplish something that would still be an unknown, a ready to play instrument could have just been purchased.
I guess the desire to get started NOW, then wait, feels better to some than just waiting to begin with.
A temperamental thing.
I know, I searched and waited until that just right Lester came into my hands and there was no mistake.
Oddly enough, it had more red flags than a Chinese New Year parade, but when I played it, I knew it was THE ONE.
The thrill of that was so much greater than trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear. Even if the results were successful, it would seem a hollow victory to me when I could have just held out for the right silk purse.
Again...a temperamental thing, I suppose.
My 'heavily altered '71 Deluxe gets me no bragging rights with the vintage/custom/makeover/etc. crowd, but every open-minded, accomplished player who plays it agrees that it is a special instrument.
Best of all, when I play it, it feels like some mad scientist figured out how to get inside my body and make MY guitar.
That was worth the wait.
 

clapciadrix

Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2007
Messages
80
This thread makes my head spin.
So many posts and so much minutiae.
It seems to me, given the time, money (air fare!)and patience necessary to accomplish something that would still be an unknown, a ready to play instrument could have just been purchased.
I guess the desire to get started NOW, then wait, feels better to some than just waiting to begin with.
A temperamental thing.
I know, I searched and waited until that just right Lester came into my hands and there was no mistake.
Oddly enough, it had more red flags than a Chinese New Year parade, but when I played it, I knew it was THE ONE.
The thrill of that was so much greater than trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear. Even if the results were successful, it would seem a hollow victory to me when I could have just held out for the right silk purse.
Again...a temperamental thing, I suppose.
My 'heavily altered '71 Deluxe gets me no bragging rights with the vintage/custom/makeover/etc. crowd, but every open-minded, accomplished player who plays it agrees that it is a special instrument.
Best of all, when I play it, it feels like some mad scientist figured out how to get inside my body and make MY guitar.
That was worth the wait.
With all due respect, Who asked you?
 

jb_abides

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
5,520
I think the confusion with plastic may be celluloid as used for the inlays.

Plastic is derived from Petroleum Oil.

I think we all had it right about the plastisizer, that this was added to the Nitrocellulose to produce a harder wearing more flexible finish that could be sprayed on thicker.

FWIW... It's nothing to do with the inlay material.

There have always been adjuncts used to plasticize nitro finish. What is being used, in what composition, would be the question.

In the physical sciences realm, a plasticizer is any substance that enhances the property of 'plasticity' i.e. the ability of a solid material to undergo permanent deformation, a non-reversible change of shape in response to applied forces. Thus, bent or stamped metal is displaying the property of plasticity.

Petroleum derivatives are most widely used modern application to achieve this property, thus our shorthand for 'plastic' being what it is today. Which is to say, common but not exclusively... Think bakelite: a resin from phenol (from other hydrocarbons e.g. coal tar before the switch to petrol) and formaldehyde (from methanol).

So through time Gibson has used different substances (and-or amounts thereof) to achieve their desired effect, taking into consideration working the finish, the type of sprayer, the drying time, health and safety considerations, etc.

Today, what Florian (or some other boutique builder) might use is perhaps more of a throwback, or could be an entirely novel formulation based on independent R&D, depending on how they work, what regulations obtain, desired outcome, etc.

Gibson doesn't explicitly cite what plasticizers they use in their nitro finish formulation [or have used in the past]; however, they have acknowledged different formulations, purposely drawing attention to different plasticizer content between Murphy Lab and VOS [which are both different from USA nitro]. With the Murphy Lab finish hardening faster, becoming more brittle, and progressing further so with age than VOS.
 

Subliminal lanimilbuS

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 28, 2023
Messages
364
I like the thought of how this guitar is put together. I also like its more 50's look and carve that you can't get without buying an actual 50's Gibson or a proper replica. I do like old guitars for the most part, but getting one you really like can be a bit of work. Not a lot of local vintage guitars come up near me even though I am close to a very large city. That leaves buying online, having shipped and a guitar that I don't get to check out first. I have had a fair number of 70's Les Paul's over the years. Some really good, some really bad and some that were extremely heavy. A 71 isn't cheap these days. If I had the extra cash and was taking a chance either way I would probably go this route over even a custom ordered guitar from Gibson. Just from what I have seen in this thread I can tell he puts a lot of consideration into doing things properly. If it ends up sounding really good I think it could be worth it.
 

Subliminal lanimilbuS

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Joined
Sep 28, 2023
Messages
364
Nitrocellulose, a mixture of nitric esters of cellulose, is a highly flammable compound that is the main ingredient of modern gunpowder and is also employed in certain lacquers and paints. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries it was the basis of the earliest man-made fibres and plastic materials.

Plastics are high molecular weight organic polymers composed of various elements such as carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, sulphur and chlorine. Nitrocellulose is one such polymer. There are many. You can also add silicon into the brew to get silicone.

Nitrocellulose is a synthetic resin. Plasticizers are substances added to this resin to produce or promote plasticity and flexibility and to reduce brittleness.

Nitrocellulose lacquer is nitrocellulose dissolved in a solvent. After painting onto a guitar the solvent evaporates leaving a film of nitrocellulose. The finish on a 1950's Les Paul is a thin film of brittle plastic.
 

clapciadrix

Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2007
Messages
80
Nice passive aggressive with the phony "all due respect" thing.
How do you know how much respect I'm due?
The answer is, by the way, this is an internet bulletin board....
Everybody is entitled to my opinion. ?
Nice passive aggressive with the phony "all due respect" thing.
How do you know how much respect I'm due?
The answer is, by the way, this is an internet bulletin board....
Everybody is entitled to my opinion. ?
With all due respect Chuck, you babbling about your opinion has nothing to do with the topic.
 

El Camino

New member
Joined
Mar 16, 2024
Messages
3
Tradicional way to achieve natural "craquelé" cracking finish, is lean over fat, I'm talking about oil varnish!
But same idea should apply to other finish, 1st coat soft nitro and top coat a hard nitro.

This is a slow procces so people use a cutter small blade tool.
 

Revolver1

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Joined
Feb 7, 2024
Messages
340
I've really enjoyed the discussions we've had here, it's all related to what's going on with the make over. I've learned alot about some pretty interesting stuff. There's been a bit of detective work, some speculation and people have come forward and shared some great pictures and information. For me it's a welcome distraction as I wait for the next update on the next step of the journey.

And that's what this is a journey, and your all a part of it. I'm very much enjoying making a record of the journey, for myself to look back on but also for anyone else maybe considering doing this to see what it's all about.

It blows my mind that we're all living in different parts of the world but we come together here to discuss our shared passion for the Les Paul. I wake up to find there's been a whole lot of discussion going on whilst I've been asleep!

Imagine trying to do something like this before the days of the internet? My connection with Florian has been quite intense at times and a truly amazing friendship has come out of it. Again, it's all a part of the experience.....

I've already gone into great detail for my reasoning why I have taken this route so there's no need to go over all that again. And Charlie, I am genuinely happy for you that you have found some great guitars you have some kind of next level connection with. Nothing better than that....

We all have our own reasons for the choices we make and that's cool. But either way this is actually happening, infact its nearly done. ?
 

Revolver1

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Feb 7, 2024
Messages
340
Hey NINFNM just saw those pictures of the finishes. Very cool.

I stripped the lacquer on the neck of my 2017 and the lacquer on the neck was pretty thin. Also the top is pretty thin, you can see the pits in the grain in some spots.

I chipped the finish on the back in one spot and the lacquer is pretty thick there just like in the picture you show.
 

gitmohair

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Joined
Feb 22, 2024
Messages
78
With all due respect Chuck, you babbling about your opinion has nothing to do with the topic.

Well IMHO it did, and as he says, this is a public forum. There is a small herd of elephants in the room here, "Chuck" can see them and so can the OP. It's a fascinating (and very informative) thread, though :)
 
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charliechitlins

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Nov 16, 2021
Messages
1,109
Well IMHO it did, and as he says, this is a public forum. There is a small herd of elephants in the room here, "Chuck" can see them and so can the OP. It's a fascinating (and very informative) thread, though :)
Funny how we so wholeheartedly support going on for pages and pages about finish additives or bridges (don't even THINK about pickups!), but the person who says, "Just buy yourself a good guitar and PLAY it, fer cryin' out loud!") has no voice.
The emperor has no clothes!
I got booted off the other Lester board by saying that a tech's customer who wanted to save his vintage frets after a refret "jyst might be a doofus."
Ive actually made peace with the idea that many (most?) people on guitar BBs approach guitars more like stamp collectors than musicians.
It's fine.
This is how some approach guitar ownership.
But I do find it odd how deadly solemn it can be.
I have an area or 2 of serious weenie-dom and feel it's important to be self aware and have a sense of humor about myself because I know my little nerderies are about the least important things on earth.
 
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