What magnets did the original PAFs use?

[Gunbucker]

Any idea what magnet type (A2, A3, or A5) did the original PAFs use?

 

[58lespaulman]

I beleave the long magnet Alnico 2 is what went into the 57, to 60 PAF's. But sometimes they would get A3's and even A4's from the manufactor.. This is what I've heard,,,

 

[Gunbucker]

Hi 58lespaulman, thanks for the reply.

Did Gibson ever use A5 magnets?

 

[58lespaulman]

Not to my nowledge, but that doesn't mean that they didn't use A5's on 1 or 2 guitars.. You see It's my understanding that they ordered A2 long magnet from there supplyer but sometimes the supply'r ran out of the A2's and sent them A3's and even A4's.. The thing is, they look the same so we wouldn't know just by looking at them, but you would definenetly feel the diference when you put a piece of metal up to the magnet..

 

[59gibson]

Not to my nowledge, but that doesn't mean that they didn't use A5's on 1 or 2 guitars.. You see It's my understanding that they ordered A2 long magnet from there supplyer but sometimes the supply'r ran out of the A2's and sent them A3's and even A4's.. The thing is, they look the same so we wouldn't know just by looking at them, but you would definenetly feel the diference when you put a piece of metal up to the magnet..

With all due respect, It's been my understanding that the original 57 PAF's used Alnico II (Long Magnets) and by 59/60 you start seeing Alnico V's (long magnets). By late 1961, the shorter magnets are used, which I thought were also Alnico V's. Different PAF's experts I've spoken with over the years also claimed to have seen PAF's with III's and IV's used throughout the years. However, what I've heard, read & discussed, II's & V's were used the most. :2cents

 

[58lespaulman]

Isn't V's really A5???

 

[58lespaulman]

I believe what you say, but why does most any PAF clone mostly using A2's for there pickups?? Like the Antiquity pickups that are supposed to be PAF clones and the Burstbucker that are PAF clones both use Alnico 2's?

 

[Bradster]

59gibson has it right, they used AlNiCo II though I have heared Seth Lover's design called for AlNiCo V.

(yes "V" is the Roman numeral for "5")

It turns out to be one of those cool "happy accidents" that made them sound better (and the mismatched coils too)

 

[59gibson]

I believe what you say, but why does most any PAF clone mostly using A2's for there pickups?? Like the Antiquity pickups that are supposed to be PAF clones and the Burstbucker that are PAF clones both use Alnico 2's?

You are correct in that alot of PAF clones do use A2s. I'm not real sure how early the A5s were used and it could be that most PAF clone makers had earlier PAF's with A2s to modeled theirs after. I know to my ear, I like A5s and I have found that same "A5 tone " in late 59 PAFs and early 61 PAFs.

 

[59gibson]

It turns out to be one of those cool "happy accidents" that made them sound better (and the mismatched coils too)

Very true :dude :dude

 

[58lespaulman]

I know my Darkbursts have A5's which are in fact Alnico V's and they sound better then any pickup that I've ever come in contact with. I'll have to agree with you on Alnico 5's sounding better then alnico 2's. Just sound more pronaunced in every way..

 

[jetlag]

When I talked to Tom Holmes, he talked about his work at Gibson and his development of his PAF-ish humbucker. He said he had access to Gibson's order records in the 50's. With those and other research, it was his opinion that alnico IV was the most common magnet used. Thus, that's what he used on his original 450/455 humbucker set ("4" standing for alnico IV, 50 standing for 5000 turns). He said he switched to alnico II as standard because so many people requested it. The thing that stood out with Tom was that he emphasized that magnets vary so much from batch to batch and especially from manufacturer to manufacturer. So alnico IV one day could easily be the gauss strength of alnico V another or II yet another day.

Maybe others here can comment on Fralin, because my memory is really dim. But didn't he do similar research and arrive at alnico IV as well?

 

[Korina& Mahogany]

When I talked to Tom Holmes, he talked about his work at Gibson and his development of his PAF-ish humbucker. He said he had access to Gibson's order records in the 50's. With those and other research, it was his opinion that alnico IV was the most common magnet used. Thus, that's what he used on his original 450/455 humbucker set ("4" standing for alnico IV, 50 standing for 5000 turns). He said he switched to alnico II as standard because so many people requested it. The thing that stood out with Tom was that he emphasized that magnets vary so much from batch to batch and especially from manufacturer to manufacturer. So alnico IV one day could easily be the gauss strength of alnico V another or II yet another day.

Maybe others here can comment on Fralin, because my memory is really dim. But didn't he do similar research and arrive at alnico IV as well?

I have found that the Gauss strength is the first big factor. No matter the grade of Alnico, if one has a measurement of 35 or above, & anoher is 27, that will make a big difference
Having a A2 & A5 @ 25 Gauss, the true differences can be heard.
Since A5 was the choice of Speaker manufactures, due to its abilty to focus the field much more precisely; The orientation and the width of the the field would be tighter, & therefore brighter.
One of the reasons Dimarzio PAF's & early Duncan 59's were liked was thier 45 & 35 Gauss magnets. The windings were 8.1 to 8.5K compared to 70's Gibson HB @ 7.3 - 7.8K. The desire to get more harsh brite output from a low wound paf type Pup has really passed.

 

[plaintop]

The magnets used in late 50s PAFs are "cheap Alnico V" aka Alnico IV. Its all in the mix apparently. :wink2

 

[Macleod]

The thing that stood out with Tom was that he emphasized that magnets vary so much from batch to batch and especially from manufacturer to manufacturer. So alnico IV one day could easily be the gauss strength of alnico V another or II yet another day.

Maybe others here can comment on Fralin, because my memory is really dim. But didn't he do similar research and arrive at alnico IV as well?

There is quite a variance from batch to batch, and even moreso from manufacturer to manufacturer.
There is no officially recognized Alnico 4 grade. Several of my magnet suppliers have told me that "Alnico 4" is actually Alnico 5 that "didn't make the grade" so to speak...
I have seen PAF's with Iron magnets. The PAF specs only called for "a magnetic material"

 

[turkish]

There is quite a variance from batch to batch, and even moreso from manufacturer to manufacturer.
There is no officially recognized Alnico 4 grade. Several of my magnet suppliers have told me that "Alnico 4" is actually Alnico 5 that "didn't make the grade" so to speak...
I have seen PAF's with Iron magnets. The PAF specs only called for "a magnetic material"

The following table is from Duncan's Q&A #226. So A4 is not a weak a5, its just that their composition is different. It is funny that actually the gauss readings of both a3 and a4 is lower than that of a2's. So that makes them weaker than a2's no?

Magnet material
Nominal Chemical Composition
Gauss
Oersteds Nominal
Maxim-um Energy
Alnico 1 12 Al, 21 Ni, 5 Co, 3 Cu, Bal. Fe 7200 470 1.40
Alnico 2 10 Al, 19 Ni, 13 Co, 3 Cu, Bal. Fe 7500 560 1.70
Alnico 3 12 Al, 25 Ni, 3 Cu, Bal. Fe 7000 480 1.35
Alnico 4 12 Al, 27 Ni, 5 Co, Bal. Fe 5600 720 1.35
Alnico 5 8 Al, 14 Ni, 24 Co, 3 Cu, Bal. Fe 12800 640 5.50
Alnico 5DG 8 Al, 14 Ni, 24 Co, 3 Cu, Bal. Fe 13300 670 6.50
Alnico 5 col. 8 Al, 14 Ni, 24 Co, 3 Cu, Bal. Fe 13500 740 7.55
Alnico 6 8 Al, 16 Ni, 24 Co, 3 Cu, 1 Ti, Bal. Fe 10500 780 3.90
Alnico 8 7 Al, 15 Ni, 35 Co, 4 Cu, 5 Ti, Bal. Fe 8200 1650 5.30
Alnico 8 HC 8 Al, 14 Ni, 38 Co, 3 Cu, 8 Ti, Bal. Fe 7200 1900 5.00
Alnico 9 7 Al, 15 Ni, 35 Co, 4 Cu, 5 Ti, Bal. Fe 10500 1500 9.00

BTW I came across some of your pickups, and loved them. I just wanted you to know that I respect what you do! :dude So would love to hear what you think about that alnico grade issue here.

Best,

MB

PS: My source:

http://www.seymourduncan.com/website/support/seymours_q_and_a_4.shtml#226

 

[Gunbucker]

Guys, awesome material!!! Much more than what I expected to find out :dude

 

[Macleod]

It is funny that actually the gauss readings of both a3 and a4 is lower than that of a2's. So that makes them weaker than a2's no?
.....Alnico 4 12 Al, 27 Ni, 5 Co, Bal. Fe 5600 720 1.35.....
BTW I came across some of your pickups, and loved them. I just wanted you to know that I respect what you do! :dude So would love to hear what you think about that alnico grade issue here.
Best,
MB

If the gauss reading is lower, they should be weaker.
My sources that tell me there is no official Alnico 4 are my suppliers, Allstar Magnetics (one of Seymour's supplier also,) AZ Magnetics (A Gibson supplier at one time, and still Fender supplier), and an old supplier I no longer use who's name I forget. There are others I don't buy from who have also said this.
However, I do have something that claims to be Alnico 4 lying around here somewhere as a sample that was sent to me. Can't find it though.
If someone can find an industry-recognized formulae, I'd love to see it.

Ohh yeh, who's pickups did you run across?

 

[turkish]

Thanks. :ahem

A set of your tele pickups, I guess you call them "cub". I love them, still keep them.

The other pickups I think are yours are those I bought from Torres Engineering. A blues special tele lead (staggered 60's style), and a vintage strat neck, as they were calling. I think I made the purchase in November 2002. I am not too sure if those are yours but remember that my purchase date sort of matched the dates (you gave on some old thread) during which you were a subcontractor for them. No? From what I understand, they gotta be yours as they are quite good, unlike what I hear about Torres' other pickups. Any input there?

MB

 

[Zhangliqun]

Isn't V's really A5???

Yes, same thing. V = 5.