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1980 Heritage Les Paul Elite Burst

Tiddles

New member
Joined
Sep 17, 2003
Messages
254
Age does qualify as vintage. The term “vintage” is well defined, but it’s from the French wine industry … just refers to the year in which the grapes were harvested (this year, last year, any year), and implies nothing about quality … some vintages were good, some were bad.

There is no such definition for guitars, players & collectors have just adopted the term. Here, it’s taken to mean original models made from 52 to 60 …but it’s just an arbitrary choice made by those that run the Forum. A 69 Std/Deluxe is an old guitar & if you want to call it vintage then I expect most would agree it’s a fair description …but not here, because that’s the rules.

More generally (outside this Forum), I think the only logical position is to say that “vintage” means from the first few years of production, say the first quarter of a models history…that would currently make Les Paul’s vintage before 1965,… & in 20 years time they’d be “vintage” before 1970. PRS might be “vintage” as recently as 1985-90 for example, because PRS only started in 1985 (officially). Landmark changes such as Norlin or CBS can’t strictly affect the vintage, because they don’t change the age of the guitar. Again. “vintage” has nothing to do with “quality” (subjective), it just refers to date of production. :2cents as always.

Ian.
 

Todd Louis

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Well I don't consider a 68' Les Paul or a 70' Strat to be desirable Vintage. Maybe that would be a better way of saying it?. This is a touchy subject and as the years go by I'm certain well all see alot of things change. Hay theres the Historic and Time Machine series will they be sort after?? like the originals?? Personally I couldn't care less my guitars are instruments. I'm still piss I had to pay what I did for them new! :2cents
 

The REAL Rocker

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Dec 12, 2002
Messages
340
Todd Louis said:
Rains said:
Age doesn't qualify as Vintage. I think the term needs to evolve now that it is 2005 people are selling things from the dark years of Fender and Gibson 1970 1980 and are jacking up the price and calling it Vintage exploiting nostalgia of the so called next generation and casing confusion with good and bad guitars ( Yes call me an ass hole if you want ) the 70's and 80's use to be considered and embarrassment. Some good things did come out of that time but the bad far more the good. And there are plenty of Vintage dealers and enthusiasts that will say this. I don't mean to offend any one Original guitars are absently expensive and I myself had many U.S.A. production Gibson's form the 80's But the Term Vintage is today to vague a term.:2cents
I disagree with you totally. I"m in instrument retail, and the market line on vintage has always been 20 years fropm the date of build :) . Whether you like it or not, a 1980 built guitar IS a vintage guitar. It seems to me that a lot of what I'm hearing is just more thinly disguised hatred of Norlin-made products :toobad .............................The REAL Rocker.
 

kink56

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Dec 20, 2004
Messages
7,672
All 5 of the Heritage 80s or Elites I have owned or do own sound better than any R9 or R8 etc I have owned or played. Why does the forum think the R9 is on top of the food chain?? Go ahead and buy that H-80 Elite, and I'll bet it will be a better sounding and playing guitar than MOST R9s you will ever run across!!
 

fast ricky love

In the Zone/Backstage Pass
Joined
Mar 27, 2002
Messages
3,458
My memory of my former H-80's were that they didn't have the warmth/fat tone I could get from the right historic... could have just been the guitars I had. I found my H-80's focused and bright... no?
 

kink56

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I find they have great versatility. but then again I put 550K Cts audio taper pots and orange drops in mine.
 

rays44

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Jul 24, 2001
Messages
2,902
fast ricky love said:
My memory of my former H-80's were that they didn't have the warmth/fat tone I could get from the right historic... could have just been the guitars I had. I found my H-80's focused and bright... no?

Most lesters from that period were focused. That is one of their characteristic features. Nothing wrong with that unless you prefer a more open sound. I have an '81 natural top standard with so much emphasis on select mid frequencies that it always sounds like I'm playing through a 4x12 cab. You know that unmistakable 4x12 honk. My Heritage Elite, which BTW is not loud at all acoustically, is extremely musical and completely different sounding. Both of these will differ from a Historic. Neither is better or worse. Just depends on what you prefer
 

kink56

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Dec 20, 2004
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Yes 20 Year old Guitars ARE vintage, but at the LPF vintage section means the original Les Pauls of 1952-1960. Maybe there should be another catagory for collectible Les Pauls from the 1968-1993 range. As opposed to "used" Les Pauls that are bought because one does not want to pay for a new one.
 

Old-Guy

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Mar 9, 2003
Messages
591
Well thanks to all for the replies I'm still on the fence with the H-80 maybe a little to $$ for the condition I'll be returning for a second visit this week.

I asumed that vintage meant over 25 years old like the term Classic or Antique for 25 year old or older cars. I'll be shure to post any queeries in the other sections for any thing over 1960.

I'm glad to hear just cause somthing is old dosn't mean it's vintage makes me feel a lot younger ;)


Old-Guy
 

Todd Louis

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kink56 said:
Yes 20 Year old Guitars ARE vintage, but at the LPF vintage section means the original Les Pauls of 1952-1960. Maybe there should be another catagory for collectible Les Pauls from the 1968-1993 range. As opposed to "used" Les Pauls that are bought because one does not want to pay for a new one.
Yes this is what I was talking about.
 

Todd Louis

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The REAL Rocker said:
Todd Louis said:
I disagree with you totally. I"m in instrument retail, and the market line on vintage has always been 20 years fropm the date of build :) . Whether you like it or not, a 1980 built guitar IS a vintage guitar. It seems to me that a lot of what I'm hearing is just more thinly disguised hatred of Norlin-made products :toobad .............................The REAL Rocker.
Well I know people who are here in NYC with you and me and they started there own company and are dealing in only original vintage guitars 69' back. And I am not deputing what here is considered vintage. I am stating that the term will have to change or the attitude towards the 70's, 80's, 90's and today's instruments. And a 68' on Is a reissue:toobad
 

The REAL Rocker

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Dec 12, 2002
Messages
340
Todd Louis said:
The REAL Rocker said:
Well I know people who are here in NYC with you and me and they started there own company and are dealing in only original vintage guitars 69' back. And I am not deputing what here is considered vintage. I am stating that the term will have to change or the attitude towards the 70's, 80's, 90's and today's instruments. And a 68' on Is a reissue:toobad
I WORK with said dealers here in N.Y, and the idea of them working with ONLY '69 and further back isn't new at all. As one dealer I know put it,"With all the suckers out there hung up on vintage, I can ask whatever I want for 1969 and down and get it :ahem ! After 1970, I have to listen to customers bitch at me about what a guitar SHOULD cost :wha !!!" The term "vintage guitars" means different things to different people, and it usually depends on whether your buying or selling. As for changing the term, The term IS ALREADY changing for the average dealer has FAR LESS vintage guitars then he used to, and dealers have now realized they to survive, they will have to sell guitars that they didn't want to touch years ago. As for your reissue crack, it isn't valid. A Gibson Les Paul in 2005 is still is a Les Paul, just a new one. Some prefer it, and a lot of others prefer a 40 year old one. Nothing wrong with that, but they ARE both Les Pauls, issued by Gibson.Different years were built with different methods, and I understand that, but they're still Gibson Les Pauls.It's funny, this thing with guitars. This is the only business where people denigrate newly built products and they don't even want to play said product before they bash it(and to be honest, I have old AND new Les Pauls!). If I went out and bought a Ford F-150 pickup truck, do you think someone would tell me it's not a Ford because it wasn't built in the '60's?..........................The REAL Rocker.
 

rays44

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Jul 24, 2001
Messages
2,902
GreenRiver said:
Rays44...wow! That is stupendous! :bug
Heritage_elite.jpg


Thank you. It's also a very good sounding lester, which is more important to me. :salude
 

gitarzilla

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Sep 28, 2002
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Old guy, is that the one just listed by the 12 Fret on Danforth? If so, it looks nice and I'd say it's probably worth pretty close to what they're asking for it if it plays and sounds good to you. I wish I could bet up there to check it out, but I'll be busy chasin' 335s down in MD.

To everyone else who has a problem with the way the discussion groups are partitioned: please get over it. This isn't a democracy. Those are the rules made by the people running the forum. PAF supplied a very cogent and reasonable explanation. No veiled Norlin-era bashing at all. Believe me, if someone wants to bash Norlin-era Gibsons, they'll come right out and do it.

Most Norlin-era Gibsons bite.

There. I did it.
 

Todd Louis

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Aug 7, 2002
Messages
14,512
The REAL Rocker said:
Todd Louis said:
I WORK with said dealers here in N.Y, and the idea of them working with ONLY '69 and further back isn't new at all. As one dealer I know put it,"With all the suckers out there hung up on vintage, I can ask whatever I want for 1969 and down and get it :ahem ! After 1970, I have to listen to customers bitch at me about what a guitar SHOULD cost :wha !!!" The term "vintage guitars" means different things to different people, and it usually depends on whether your buying or selling. As for changing the term, The term IS ALREADY changing for the average dealer has FAR LESS vintage guitars then he used to, and dealers have now realized they to survive, they will have to sell guitars that they didn't want to touch years ago. As for your reissue crack, it isn't valid. A Gibson Les Paul in 2005 is still is a Les Paul, just a new one. Some prefer it, and a lot of others prefer a 40 year old one. Nothing wrong with that, but they ARE both Les Pauls, issued by Gibson.Different years were built with different methods, and I understand that, but they're still Gibson Les Pauls.It's funny, this thing with guitars. This is the only business where people denigrate newly built products and they don't even want to play said product before they bash it(and to be honest, I have old AND new Les Pauls!). If I went out and bought a Ford F-150 pickup truck, do you think someone would tell me it's not a Ford because it wasn't built in the '60's?..........................The REAL Rocker.
Yes I know you do. And I never said it was. The people I was referring to got tiered of selling Non original vintage guitars. As far as a 59' Les Paul go's $200k + or - is ridiculous! but if you are going to tell me that a 70's 80's LP is equal in quality just because it is now 20 or so years old??? Not every one is Smock. And we all know how the buying and selling game go's. Hay I don't blame them It's a hard business. 48th's street was much bigger then it is today and it was sad to see Riche sell WE BUY'S . If anything is to be compared to the 50's guitars in quality then it would be the ones that are being made today. Are these interments Vintage?.... Are they Original?.... some are. Are they good?.... YES!! Far better the previous! And according to my wallet that's what matters! Gorge Grunn refers to it as the golden era of guitar manufacturing. As apposed to the problems of the past. Neck angel, Miss shape head stock's, Sandwich body, Volute's, Polyurethane.....
I don't have any Original guitars just Historic and Time Mashie and these guitars are Reissues. Just like the 68's are! I never said there not Gibson's or not Fenders of coarse they are! They didn't stop making a corvette then seven years later started making it again. But they did with Les Paul's.............................. Todd Louis
 

Old-Guy

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Mar 9, 2003
Messages
591
Yup thats the one. I know one of the guys there and he calls me anytime somthing interesting comes in to see if I'm interested before they list it. It's a great player and has the TS PuPs there a good amount of buckle rash and a few dings I'd say about 8.5. I just picked up an all original 72 Tele Moca so cash is a little tight and the wife is starting to wonder why I have so many more cases:)

O-G




gitarzilla said:
Old guy, is that the one just listed by the 12 Fret on Danforth? If so, it looks nice and I'd say it's probably worth pretty close to what they're asking for it if it plays and sounds good to you. I wish I could bet up there to check it out, but I'll be busy chasin' 335s down in MD.

To everyone else who has a problem with the way the discussion groups are partitioned: please get over it. This isn't a democracy. Those are the rules made by the people running the forum. PAF supplied a very cogent and reasonable explanation. No veiled Norlin-era bashing at all. Believe me, if someone wants to bash Norlin-era Gibsons, they'll come right out and do it.

Most Norlin-era Gibsons bite.

There. I did it.
 

moonpie

In the Zone
Joined
May 24, 2003
Messages
9,781
Come on Guys

Why should it irritate anyone if a 50s Lester goes for even a million dollars?

If they hadn't kept their value, for whatever reason, they'd all be gone by now, either to the curb or the fireplace.

Do I think 50s Lesters are the be all end all of all guitardom?
No.

Have I ever played a 50s Lester?
No.

Have I fallen into the trap of thinking old LPs are way over priced?
Yes, but that was when I was a poor musician, and I thought if had THE best tools, I'd be a better mechanic.

Let's face it, if it weren't for the collector's value of the old LPs, most of us wouldn't give a shit about them. We wouldn't have a site like this to share our feelings on the subject, and we'd be playing the shiniest new thing to come along.

I was reading an article in an old GP magazine a couple of days ago.
It was from the mid eighties, and George Gruhn was talking about the 50s Lesters. They were less than $10,000 then.

Some of us bought new cars. Some of us bought houses. Some of us chased whores, drank half our salary and spent the rest on drugs, all the while bitching because we couldn't afford better equipment.


I'M GONNA POINT OUT A COUPLE OF FACTS

1) never mind, if you don't get it by now, you aren't gonna get it.
 
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