Guppy in the pond discovers music theory

[CptFnMarvelous]

Recently resumed playing and learning guitar after a long break. Before I just played covers and a few originals developed from riffs I stumbled across while noodling away.

This time I figured I might as well learn a few actual scale and chord patterns just to see if it provoked anything new. This led to trying to decipher the logic behind how musical instruments and guitar in particular actually work.

Now I'm no classical musician or virtuoso and I doubt any of the little discoveries I've made are anything no one has thought of before. That said people understand things different ways and I thought I'd share some perspectives and invite people to share their own just to see if anything connects with anyone and maybe increases the fun of this already great practice.

 

[CptFnMarvelous]

Recently resumed playing and learning guitar after a long break. Before I just played covers and a few originals developed from riffs I stumbled across while noodling away.

This time I figured I might as well learn a few actual scale and chord patterns just to see if it provoked anything new. This led to trying to decipher the logic behind how musical instruments and guitar in particular actually work.

Now I'm no classical musician or virtuoso and I doubt any of the little discoveries I've made are anything no one has thought of before. That said people understand things different ways and I thought I'd share some perspectives and invite people to share their own just to see if anything connects with anyone and maybe increases the fun of this already great practice.

1. Diatonic Modes

The diatonic modes are a fiction. All they are is the major scale. That is to say they don't exist independently of the major scale.

One way or another if you've advanced to the point of fretting some note or another as opposed to just playing open strings on the guitar, then you're into the major scale somehow.

So first try taking whatever pattern you use to play all seven notes of the major scale and the octave.

You'll note that relative to the first note of the scale each of the other six notes create a different feeling.

So if you start on the 1st and play through to the 8th there's your major scale.

Then start on the 2nd and play all the way through to the 9th. Relative to the root note this 2 to 9 scale will have the same feeling to the 1-8 as the second note does to the first in that scale. (incidentally this is called the Dorian mode by some Ancient Ancient musicians who decided to try to confuse us all)

Repeating the process 3 to 10, 4 to 11 etc..., you'll notice starting from the first there are seven patterns until you get back to the first one octave higher.

Now because the way of a guitar is set up there's more than one place that you can play the same thing on a guitar. So instead of playing across the strings low E to high e, try playing these on one string 1 st fret to 12th

Next start mixing these together, so you play a little bit first to 12th then somewhere along the way resume low to high strings.

Once you've sort of gotten the hang of that, look where your hands are falling on the fretboard, and see if when you play through the pentatonic scale patterns, if you discover anything.

 

[CptFnMarvelous]

2. The "Izzy Stradlin Effect"

Many people would agree that Slash can play the guitar a little bit. Fewer probably would agree that Izzy is the better musician. There it is. Want proof?

Compare Slash's solos on anything Izzy's rythym isn't backing to anything it is. I'm not getting down on Slash. The guy inspired me to play guitar in the first place.

Second proof. 1. Pick a rythym from anything JuJu Hounds ( whichever you like the best, and I'll admit a lot of it is pretty hard to like). I'd recommend Shuffle It All (A, D, E with inflections). 2. Record it. 3. Play back and solo over it.

Good gravy! You sound like Slash!?!?

 

[Pat Boyack]

Good gravy! You sound like Slash!?!?

Yeah, if it was that easy. Slash and Izzy are two totally different players that play well TOGETHER. Like other classic duos they had something special. Neither one "made" the other.

 

[CptFnMarvelous]

Agree neither made the other. Still, playing a minor pentatonic box over pretty much any of Izzy's rythym tracks sounds "Slashish" to me. It could well be my bias though because those guys pretty much taught me to play guitar.

 

[Pat Boyack]

Agree neither made the other. Still, playing a minor pentatonic box over pretty much any of Izzy's rythym tracks sounds "Slashish" to me. It could well be my bias though because those guys pretty much taught me to play guitar.

Dude. A simple minor pentatonic box? No, it's more than that.

 

[CptFnMarvelous]

Dude. A simple minor pentatonic box? No, it's more than that.

Respectfully disagree. Many of the best rock guitar leads are based on those 5 pentatonic positions. The minor pentatonic is just an easy one to start with if a person does not yet know the patterns.

For example, if you take a G major scale played on the low E string open to the 12th fret, then use each of the notes as a starting point for a related pentatonic scale (for now, ignore the 1/2 steps) you'll end up with the Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Mixolydian and Aeolian modes expressed pentatonically.

E.g., 1 - Used to love her - D, A, G, A - solo begins on the D note of pattern 5, then A still in pattern 5, and up to D in pattern 1, A in pattern 3 and on it goes. Hitting the notes with the chord changes as they come.

E.g., 2 - little wing (intro) - Em, G, Am, Em, Bm, Am, G, F, C, D - the intro is simultaneous rhythm and lead. Played using the appropriate base note and a little lead based on the relative pentatonic shape.

Not saying you'll play like Slash just from knowing a minor pentatonic pattern, but if you play that pattern over an Izzy rythym to me, it sounds Slashish.

 

[rialcnis]

I thought you were going to talk about Guppies in your pond reacting to music. Like "Secret Life of Guppies, In Search of the Lost Chord"

 

[CptFnMarvelous]

I thought you were going to talk about Guppies in your pond reacting to music. Like "Secret Life of Guppies, In Search of the Lost Chord.

Lol, just the colloquial guppy here. Literally I'd have trouble distinguishing a herring from a mackerel and have no idea if either could be described as "guppys"

 

[Pat Boyack]

Respectfully disagree. Many of the best rock guitar leads are based on those 5 pentatonic positions. The minor pentatonic is just an easy one to start with if a person does not yet know the patterns.

For example, if you take a G major scale played on the low E string open to the 12th fret, then use each of the notes as a starting point for a related pentatonic scale (for now, ignore the 1/2 steps) you'll end up with the Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Mixolydian and Aeolian modes expressed pentatonically.

E.g., 1 - Used to love her - D, A, G, A - solo begins on the D note of pattern 5, then A still in pattern 5, and up to D in pattern 1, A in pattern 3 and on it goes. Hitting the notes with the chord changes as they come.

E.g., 2 - little wing (intro) - Em, G, Am, Em, Bm, Am, G, F, C, D - the intro is simultaneous rhythm and lead. Played using the appropriate base note and a little lead based on the relative pentatonic shape.

Not saying you'll play like Slash just from knowing a minor pentatonic pattern, but if you play that pattern over an Izzy rythym to me, it sounds Slashish.

The ignorance when a guy says "it's just a 5 note scale" always makes me laugh. You truly are a guppy when it comes to this. Try learning more solos.

 

[CptFnMarvelous]

The ignorance when a guy says "it's just a 5 note scale" always makes me laugh. You truly are a guppy when it comes to this. Try learning more solos.

Not sure I completely follow you. Do you mean that the pentatonic scale is more complex than 5 notes or that a 5 note pentatonic is insufficient to pay a decent lead?

At any rate, this thread is aimed to begin a conversation concerning music theory. It's not trying to end that conversation.

I'm always looking to learn new leads. I do have to rely on technique over speed though. Any suggestions for a good one?

 

[Pat Boyack]

Not sure I completely follow you. Do you mean that the pentatonic scale is more complex than 5 notes or that a 5 note pentatonic is insufficient to pay a decent lead?

At any rate, this thread is aimed to begin a conversation concerning music theory. It's not trying to end that conversation.

I'm always looking to learn new leads. I do have to rely on technique over speed though. Any suggestions for a good one?

I have a BA in Music and multiple years playing Blues and Rock. I've also been a guitar instructor for over 35 years. Nobody just stays with those 5 notes, especially Slash. Taking something down to it's most common denominator and then belittling it isn't constructive or correct.

I would suggest listening to and learning from T-Bone Walker and BB King when it comes to soloing and the Blues. Then you'll see it's not just 5 notes.

 

[CptFnMarvelous]

So... If I've got this right... This is going to be the 2nd time in your life, that you are choosing to NOT just learn how to play correctly???

That doesn't make a lot of sense...

Oh well... Good luck...

Thanks for well-wishes. This thread was intended to share things I've discovered along the way that I find interesting in the hopes they may benefit someone and that others might share their own discoveries.

Absolutely not claiming to be doing things "correctly". But perhaps you could tell me how I should go about that in the interests of moving the thread along? And I like to learn things.

Also, should say I'm not trying to offend anyone here. Just sharing stuff I've found to be useful... Like the pentatonic scale patterns. They're not the end all be all, but they do capture a lot of different moods and I still think are a great starting point to create on the guitar

 

[CptFnMarvelous]

I have a BA in Music and multiple years playing Blues and Rock. I've also been a guitar instructor for over 35 years. Nobody just stays with those 5 notes, especially Slash. Taking something down to it's most common denominator and then belittling it isn't constructive or correct.

I would suggest listening to and learning from T-Bone Walker and BB King when it comes to soloing and the Blues. Then you'll see it's not just 5 notes.

Both amazing... I'm partial to BB King of the two. Enjoyed some of your stuff as well. Keep on rockin'

 

[Pat Boyack]

Both amazing... I'm partial to BB King of the two. Enjoyed some of your stuff as well. Keep on rockin'

Thank you. I appreciate that. BB's biggest influence was T-Bone, and T-Bone was imitating saxophone lines. Combine both the major and minor Blues scales and you've got it.

 

[gakees]

Thank you. I appreciate that. BB's biggest influence was T-Bone, and T-Bone was imitating saxophone lines. Combine both the major and minor Blues scales and you've got it.

This.

 

[Any Name You Wish]

The OP is correct that discovering the different scales in different positions on the neck and how they relate to each other is interesting and fun. Buuuuuut, Pat Boyack and his expressive digit is also correct in that it is so much more than 5 notes. There are bends up, bends down, vibrato, hammer ons, pull offs, two string fills, triad fills, slide up, slide down, attack, dynamics, phrasing, harmonics, and most of all timing. I would rather listen to a guitarist that knows how to use all these things to express themselves but doesn't know squat about theory rather than listen to one that can shred scales. But, I think the OP was strictly talking about discovering music theory.

 

[jb_abides]

But, I think the OP was strictly talking about discovering music theory.

+1, I took the thread as meant to document his personal journey... exposing / expressing his discovery process for all to witness. Let it flow.

 

[Pat Boyack]

The OP is correct that discovering the different scales in different positions on the neck and how they relate to each other is interesting and fun. Buuuuuut, Pat Boyack and his expressive digit is also correct in that it is so much more than 5 notes. There are bends up, bends down, vibrato, hammer ons, pull offs, two string fills, triad fills, slide up, slide down, attack, dynamics, phrasing, harmonics, and most of all timing. I would rather listen to a guitarist that knows how to use all these things to express themselves but doesn't know squat about theory rather than listen to one that can shred scales. But, I think the OP was strictly talking about discovering music theory.

I have one sheet I got back in college which explains the OP's original post. It's a great way to see how scales work and how everything is related. But it is just a tool. If you don't know how to use the them what is the point?

The great Carol Kaye hates the "box" way of soloing. She learned Jazz by following the chord and playing the chord tones. Even the Blues guys followed the chords. You can't do that with just 5 notes.

In reality you should learn the scales BUT you should also learn solos and licks feom players you admire. Shit, Clapton did it.

 

[CptFnMarvelous]

3. Scales and Chord Progressions

A well known member here suggested mixing major and minor pentatonic scales to get some blues. Great advice! Played around with this idea for a bit and discovered something new to me. Blending any configuration of typical scale patterns can produce some downright pleasing results.

An obvious one is blending a pentatonic scale and a diatonic scale. For starters, try going up a pentatonic pattern and coming down the related diatonic pattern.

Another is playing two octaves up of major 1, 3, 5 intervals and coming down minor 1, 3, 5 intervals. Or any other interval you like.

Really can go back and forth between a variety of ways, but keep in mind all of the mix won't sound awesome. There will be "sweet spots" though.

If you're bored, try finding a sweet spot and turning the resulting notes into a chord progression... Just to see what happens.

*The circle of 5ths can help pinpoint the best chord voicings. Like if you're in "C" Major based progression, the Am chord typically sounds better than a straight A