Maple Caps vs. Solid Mahogany: Tonal Differences?

[Litcrit]

I know the original intent of the maple cap was to brighten the tone a bit, from the darker sounding Mahogany. Many agree this does occur. Some differ, I think Big Al represents those who feel there is little or no real difference (chime in Big Al if I've mis-stated your position). I'm curious what others have to say. I guess the test guitars would be 50's GoldTops vs. Customs (or the modern versions).

 

[Vic Vega]

Also, how much difference in the overall tone can be attributed to the type of Fretboard? Rosewood vs. Ebony. I'd love to hear an A/B comparison of say a Historic GT, '58, or '59 with one of the all mahogany Historics with the Rosewood fretboards. I've seen various Custom Shop models like that and I think there was a limited edition sold by Sam Ash that was all mahogany.


BTW.... You work with my sister, Eileen Lubeck.

 

[58burst]

I've owned several 50's customs, and several 50's standards; and there is a DEFINITE difference in the sound-

That said, it can be hard to pin down exactly what that is for any given example- For instance, I owned a '57 custom that was extremely bright sounding, brighter than many standards; it was "featherweight", and the wood just rang like a tuning fork- (also the only guitar that I ever had stolen from me! Oh well... it's probably got a floyd rose in it by now...)

But I'd caracterise the major difference as being in the envelope of the notes, rather than the tone itself (brighter or duller)- Maple caps give a pronounced "ping" to the attack, then a noticeable midrange "bloom" as the note sustains; and mahogony seems to have a more uniform growl- Also I'd say that maple can give a bit more definition to each note than mahogony, probably due to that "ping" on each note attack- (hence maple tops are great for higher gain playing, as the notes seem to cut through the grunge more distinctly)

Maple does probably tend to add brightness in most cases across the board, although like I said any particular guitar might be brighter or duller than another, maple or not- I've got a '62 sg/lp that can cut glass- talk about bright!

Mahogony guitars can sound fuller and dirtier at lower gain, since the notes can seem to blend togather a bit more-

 

[GeetarGoul]

I've played a mahogany top rosewood board Lester, and attempting to ignore the usual variances amongst each guitar, I feel strongly that the mahogany vesus maple is fairly identifiable as a different sonic signature.

Certainly the only way to really tell would be to re-top a maple cap Lester with a mahogany cap.

Which brings a question to mind, is that a separate cap of mahogany or is the body/top all together from the same board?

Without being sure, I'd think it's a mahogany cap...how else are they gonna route the wiring channels?

 

[John Catto]

50's Customs were one piece, ie. the top carve was routed directly into the single piece body. The wiring channel was drilled with a long drill bit from the output jack to the switch cavity (they also did this on specials). The Historic Customs have a Mahogany top laminated onto the body in the same way as the Standards. As 58burst touched on, every 50's Custom I've ever seen has been SUPER light weight...none of this Customs are heavy nonsense

 

[Big Al]

58 Burst Nailed it!!!

I allways said that there is not a tonal difference (by tonal difference I mean frequency range and scope) between them. I mean it really pricks my rant bone when I see posts that state all Mahogany guitars are darker or warmer than Maple caps which are brighter.

This has not been my experience at all, and it shows a lack of listening with critical ears, and a willingness to parrot myths as truth.

For example all those dull, warm Jrs.
Yeah, Jrs are famous for that dark tone, right?
Not hardly.

Compare a good wrap tail Jr to a wrap tail Goldtop's bridge P90 and the difference in tone is sleight at best, on AVERAGE. If you compare many you'll see that they are both in a very similar tonal range.

I had the pleasure of seeing G E Smith with an exceptionly good sounding Jr. FAAAAAT!!! It was a maple bodied one, the only sunburst all maple bodied Jr I have seen. I have seen 3 maple TV's and they all sounded fat and Jr like, not thin, bright or shrill, which is what popular mythology would have you believe.
They all had a similar tonal range and sounded like most Jrs, the difference was in the attack and decay of the notes.

I have had the pleasure of playing two all Mahogany 57 Goldtops with PAF's and compared them at the time to several Maple capped 57's and Bursts and tone was very similar. Hard to tell them apart, based on tone alone.

The same for single coil Customs and Goldtops. The P90 bridge spots in each sound remarkably similar.

When you hear them you say, oh yes! Les Paul. They all share a very common ground.

So what is the difference???

58 Burst nailed it. The attack is different as is the seperation of notes. The ping on the attack, as 58 Burst posted, is a very real thing, followed by the bloom. It is very evident on Maple Capped guitars.

Mahogany guitars grunt and growl more. There is less attack on the front of the note. Instead of a ping followed by a bloom, they seem to sustain in a growling decay where each note is clearly heard. To my ears a maple capped guitar, after the initial attack ping, blooms into a smoother tone where the notes blend more. Less growling.

To assume Mahogany=Dark and Maple=Bright is really simplistic, and does not truly answer the real difference.
I have heard many Bright Mahogany guitars as well as Dark maple capped ones. And vice versa.

The body woods, IMO effect feel and dynamics much more than tone in a solidbody. There is an effect, but the percentage of effect the body woods alone contribute to tone in a solidbody are much smaller than the effects of neck stiffness, stability, shape and joint, and the geometry of string to bridge angles and neck/headstock pitch.

 

[blackdog]

Back in 1996 I bought a Historic BB57 two pickup model.
It was made just like the old ones, one piece body and routed with the long drill bit. This I know for sure because I owned the guitar for a couple of years. It had a short tennon.
Just next to it was another Historic BB57 three PU model that I didn't buy. The lacquer sinking on the top showed very clearly a much less porous wood and the centerseam of a two piece top. I would guess that one had a maple top, but will never know for sure.

Why I sold this guitar I'm still wondering... At the time I needed a new family car and was stupid enough to think I had "too many Les Pauls"... Can you believe that !!!

 

[TedB]

I do not believe my 35th Anniv Custom has a maple cap (I'll have to check). It seems strange to me that a Historic would.

 

[RickN]

The wiring channel was drilled with a long drill bit from the output jack to the switch cavity

Kool! I always wondered about this too.

This thread has me wondering if the lack of difference in tone, as Big Al points out, has something to do with the fact that the maple cap makes up a relatively small percentage of the overall mass of the body. What would a full-dimension all-maple Les Paul sound like compared to an all-mahogany Les Paul?

The point is curious for me because of the all-maple guitars that Carvin built in the 70s and 80s, one of which I own. I don't like the sound of it, even with replacement pickups.... :dead:

 

[LHakim]

Mofinco, I read an interview of McCarty once where he said Gibson in the early days experimented with an all-maple Les Paul. He said "they couldn't turn it off" which I take to mean it would feedback uncontrollably even under early 1950's amplification. He (or someone else connected w/ Gibson back then) claim they arrived at the precise ratio of maple to mahogany because of the the tone that particular ratio produced. The Kendrick Townhouse (his version of a Burst "replica" that is made by Tony Nobles) intentionally uses a deeper maple cap to get more "bite" to the sound.

 

[TedB]

I just checked my 35th Anniv 3-pickup Custom. The difference between a one piece body and a capped body is apparently easy to spot just from looking at the routing for the wiring. In this case, it is obvious that the body was not routed with a long drill. The grain in the cap is also slightly visible through the top, and is almost unquestionably mahogany. I do not detect a seam anywhere in the top.

 

[Litcrit]

Kool! I always wondered about this too.

This thread has me wondering if the lack of difference in tone, as Big Al points out, has something to do with the fact that the maple cap makes up a relatively small percentage of the overall mass of the body. What would a full-dimension all-maple Les Paul sound like compared to an all-mahogany Les Paul?

The point is curious for me because of the all-maple guitars that Carvin built in the 70s and 80s, one of which I own. I don't like the sound of it, even with replacement pickups.... :dead:

You can take the example of the Gibson L6S (all maple, LP shaped, thinner body). I had one (there's a post in "other Gibsons" currently). It was a VERY bright guitar, I would say, harshly bright (with the stock pups).

 

[Big Al]

You can't compare a 70's guitar with increased angles and pitch AND super hot Ceramic pickups and blame the wood. I've played some with replaced pickups and a good set up that sounded fine.

The whole point of my post was about comparing SIMILAR things with one identifiable difference and comparing many examples to draw a conclusion.

I think Gibson used the maple to shape the ENVELOPE of the tone. The attack and especialy the sustain.

Blackdog, I do not believe the 96 or any HISTORIC Les Pauls have short tenons. Nor do I think any Historic BB 54's or 57's were made with Maple tops.

 

[jgyn]

Howzabout that '54 Custom reissue, with the square poled alnico pup, from the early 70s? Is that mahogany capped also?
-jan

 

[c_wester]

Just bumping along.

 

[glpease]

I realize this is almost an ancient thread, but this response, and Big Al's below, perfectly summarizes what I have never been able to get into words. My experience with maple caps vs. solid mahogany is that the maple cap gives more dynamic projection at the front of the note envelope, where the notes seem to jump out of the guitar a little more enthusiastically, but I've never thought of it as being especially 'bright.' What you've written here is a more detailed description of the same effect, I think, and it makes a lot of sense.

For me, it's always been sort of a 'feel' thing. Too often, it seems, people will draw conclusions based on playing a couple of instruments. It's impossible to isolate those things that result from different construction from those things that are simply products of individual guitars. That you've owned and played several of each adds a lot more credibility to the discussion. Next time this comes up in a conversation, I'm just going to wave my hands and point to this.

I've owned several 50's customs, and several 50's standards; and there is a DEFINITE difference in the sound-

That said, it can be hard to pin down exactly what that is for any given example- For instance, I owned a '57 custom that was extremely bright sounding, brighter than many standards; it was "featherweight", and the wood just rang like a tuning fork- (also the only guitar that I ever had stolen from me! Oh well... it's probably got a floyd rose in it by now...)

But I'd caracterise the major difference as being in the envelope of the notes, rather than the tone itself (brighter or duller)- Maple caps give a pronounced "ping" to the attack, then a noticeable midrange "bloom" as the note sustains; and mahogony seems to have a more uniform growl- Also I'd say that maple can give a bit more definition to each note than mahogony, probably due to that "ping" on each note attack- (hence maple tops are great for higher gain playing, as the notes seem to cut through the grunge more distinctly)

Maple does probably tend to add brightness in most cases across the board, although like I said any particular guitar might be brighter or duller than another, maple or not- I've got a '62 sg/lp that can cut glass- talk about bright!

Mahogony guitars can sound fuller and dirtier at lower gain, since the notes can seem to blend togather a bit more-

 

[marshall1987]

A good example of the Les Paul Custom tone can be heard on the Humble Pie Live at the Filmore East. Peter Frampton is playing his Les Paul Custom through either HiWatt or Marshall amps. His tone is very distinct, especially on the solos. That's the tone I remember when I saw Humble Pie at the Alexandria Roller Rink in 1971.

 

[Minibucker]

I think one of the things that helps a Lep Paul Junior sound as meaty as it does is its non-maple-capped solid mahogany body.....probably why I prefer that to a P-90'd Standard.

 

[Texas Blues]

58 Compare a good wrap tail Jr to a wrap tail Goldtop's bridge P90 and the difference in tone is sleight at best, on AVERAGE. If you compare many you'll see that they are both in a very similar tonal range.

:3zone

I'd say that's as good as it gets right there.

Even the modern versions.

I love my V's but....

My '07 R4 and my USA Jr. are my favorite blues killin' machines.

 

[stock_hippie]

i don't know the difference..