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Orange Label questions

hipbluescat

New member
Joined
Jan 21, 2005
Messages
356
Hi

When you look at 1960's labels in Es 335, 345 and 355 guitars I also noticed handwritten letters like TD.

If you have a natural guitar would the label have TDN and cherry guitar have the letters TDC on the label ?

Cheers
 

ultra

Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2001
Messages
954
I have seen sunbursts, cherry and natural ES models all designated with just "TD". No recollection of TDC or TDN on the orange label. Pre-sixties ES models had just "T"

Someone may prove me wrong but I have a pictorial collection of 30 or so orange labels from this period that all state "TD". My own guitars show the same.

I hope that helps.
 

SuperReal

Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2007
Messages
371
My '64 red ES 335 has a very clearly handwritten "ES335 TDC" on the orange label.
 

hipbluescat

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Joined
Jan 21, 2005
Messages
356
Hi

What font type and size was used on the Orange labels?

With labels prior to the Orange label and after the Orange label did they change the font for the letters and numbers?
 

WBailey

Active member
Joined
Apr 23, 2015
Messages
1,131
There is a thread on this subject, bottom of the page. :salude
 

Kris Ford

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Jan 6, 2007
Messages
4,003
A '63 ES 335 label. (from eBay)
This is for a cherry one by the way..
DSC00786.jpg

I have seen sunbursts, cherry and natural ES models all designated with just "TD". No recollection of TDC or TDN on the orange label. Pre-sixties ES models had just "T"

Someone may prove me wrong but I have a pictorial collection of 30 or so orange labels from this period that all state "TD". My own guitars show the same.

I hope that helps.
 

Wally

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2003
Messages
3,495
My cherry red 1966 ES-345 is labeled 'ES-345 TDC'. It is also has 'Stereo Varitone' ink-stamped beside that Orange label.

As for what font is used??? There are only two reasons for wanting to know that, ime. One is to fake a label, and the other is to identify a fake.
The serial numbers on my label look exactly like the label that Kris shows us. But...there are variations in what Gibson did on those labels. For instance, on my 345's label, 'Guitar' is ink-stamped on the top line...where Kris's guitar has ES-335 in handwritten ink. ON my label's Gibson line is an ink-stamped 'ES-345 TDC'. There is no handwriting on my label.
We might imagine that it is Monday morning after a hard weekend in Kalamzoo, and the fellow who was stamping labels that day couldn't find that damn ES-335 TD stamp....write it in!!!!
HEre's a pic...

 
Last edited:

hipbluescat

New member
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Jan 21, 2005
Messages
356
My cherry red 1966 ES-345 is labeled 'ES-345 TDC'. It is also has 'Stereo Varitone' ink-stamped beside that Orange label.

As for what font is used??? There are only two reasons for wanting to know that, ime. One is to fake a label, and the other is to identify a fake.
The serial numbers on my label look exactly like the label that Kris shows us. But...there are variations in what Gibson did on those labels. For instance, on my 345's label, 'Guitar' is ink-stamped on the top line...where Kris's guitar has ES-335 in handwritten ink. ON my label's Gibson line is an ink-stamped 'ES-345 TDC'. There is no handwriting on my label.
We might imagine that it is Monday morning after a hard weekend in Kalamzoo, and the fellow who was stamping labels that day couldn't find that damn ES-335 TD stamp....write it in!!!!
HEre's a pic...


That is a nice story. That guitar is not authentic in my books!

On the Gibson vintage site these are the notes.


Rectangular label, no serial number or model name on label, photo of Orville Gibson and lyre-mandolin on label, date sometimes penciled under top: 1902 to 1904.
Oval label with serial number, no model name, photo of Orville Gibson and lyre-mandolin: 1904 to 1909.
White label with number and model name, number range 0100 to 99999. Hand ink or penciled (some overlap with previous style): 1908 to 1932.
White label with number and model name Ink stamped: 1932 to 1947.
White oval label with number preceded by "A-": spring 1947 to January 1955. The first number, A-100, was assigned to an L-7 on 4/28/47. The last white label number was A-18750, used 1/12/55. Note white label numbers A-18751 to A-20000 were not used.
Orange oval label with number preceded by an "A": Jan 1955 to 1961. The first orange label number, A20001, was used on a F-5 mandolin 01/13/55. The last orange label "A" number was A36147, used 2/21/61. Note the "-" after the "A" was dropped for the orange labels.
Orange oval label with number matching number on back of headstock (number range 100 to 999999): 1961 to 1969.
"Union Made" added to orange label: 1964 to 1969 (intermixed). Don't read too much into a label that has (or does not have) "union made", as both label types were used throughout the 1960s.
White rectangle "Norlin" label with black and purple triangles: 1970 to 1984.

Look to vertify labels on guitars I want to buy.

Does anyone have the answers?
 

Wally

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Feb 27, 2003
Messages
3,495
That is a nice story. That guitar is not authentic in my books!

On the Gibson vintage site these are the notes.


Rectangular label, no serial number or model name on label, photo of Orville Gibson and lyre-mandolin on label, date sometimes penciled under top: 1902 to 1904.
Oval label with serial number, no model name, photo of Orville Gibson and lyre-mandolin: 1904 to 1909.
White label with number and model name, number range 0100 to 99999. Hand ink or penciled (some overlap with previous style): 1908 to 1932.
White label with number and model name Ink stamped: 1932 to 1947.
White oval label with number preceded by "A-": spring 1947 to January 1955. The first number, A-100, was assigned to an L-7 on 4/28/47. The last white label number was A-18750, used 1/12/55. Note white label numbers A-18751 to A-20000 were not used.
Orange oval label with number preceded by an "A": Jan 1955 to 1961. The first orange label number, A20001, was used on a F-5 mandolin 01/13/55. The last orange label "A" number was A36147, used 2/21/61. Note the "-" after the "A" was dropped for the orange labels.
Orange oval label with number matching number on back of headstock (number range 100 to 999999): 1961 to 1969.
"Union Made" added to orange label: 1964 to 1969 (intermixed). Don't read too much into a label that has (or does not have) "union made", as both label types were used throughout the 1960s.
White rectangle "Norlin" label with black and purple triangles: 1970 to 1984.

Look to vertify labels on guitars I want to buy.

Does anyone have the answers?

Hipbluescat, check yourself. Read what you want, think what you want. That Gibson ES-345TDC I posted there is a one owner guitar, and I am that owner. I purchased it brand new in June, 1967 when I was 16 years old....bought it with money made washing and greasing cars that summer....I traded in a 1962/1963 white SG-bodied Junior. They gave me the purchase price of that guitar, which my parents new bought for $166. I owed $400 in the balance....and paid that off at $40 a week for 10 weeks. That is about $285 a week in today's money. I KNOW from where and when this guitar came.
ONE might want to know what the hell they are talking about when they claim that a one-owner guitar that is 49 years old is not a "authentic in my books", as you wrote. This guitar is as real as it gets. AS you quoted from Gibson, this guitar fits exactly....."Orange oval label with number matching number on back of headstock (number range 100 to 999999): 1961 to 1969.
"Union Made" added to orange label: 1964 to 1969 (intermixed)". The number on this guitar fits for '66, '69, and 3 years out of the '70's...but the details and the history demands that it is a '66. Like I said....check yourself. I don't know what answers you are looking for, but you definitely don't need to be giving answers as relates to Gibson guitars, imho and ime.
 

Grog

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Apr 7, 2012
Messages
509
Two of my guitars, that normally would have had an orange label, did not. I believe that the 335 didn't have one, because it was special ordered with a Bigsby. It has a "CUSTOM" TRC. The EB-2C never had a hand rest, no screw holes. I believe that it was special ordered that way & therefore had no orange label. I added NOS labels to them about 15 years ago because it bugged me.


 

hipbluescat

New member
Joined
Jan 21, 2005
Messages
356
Hi

What font type and size was used on the Orange labels?

With labels prior to the Orange label and after the Orange label did they change the font for the letters and numbers?

Well I would like the reply to the above questions!
 

ultra

Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2001
Messages
954
Maybe you might find what you are looking for in a post by RAB - "Restoring '60 ES-335...Orange Label..."

Do a search.
 

hipbluescat

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Jan 21, 2005
Messages
356
Maybe you might find what you are looking for in a post by RAB - "Restoring '60 ES-335...Orange Label..."

Do a search.

I do not believe that information is correct.

Therefore I am asking other people on the forum.

The post got hjacked then closed off anyway.
 

brandtkronholm

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Joined
Dec 3, 2006
Messages
2,471
Look to vertify labels on guitars I want to buy.

Does anyone have the answers?

If you are questioning the authenticity of the guitars that you are looking to buy, then I will suggest that the labels are a very small portion of verifying their authenticity. Perhaps you could post pictures of the guitars so that the Les Paul community might provide additional input.

From the "sticky" at the top of The Other Gibsons we read about authenticating guitars:

Dear Les Paul Forum Members,

...

One of the benefits of membership in the Les Paul Forum is the ability to help one another with information about guitars, including help with authenticating them.

However, we must avoid the unintended consequences of questioning the authenticity of a guitar on a whim, thus becoming armchair "judge and jury", and putting an owner of what may be a legitimate guitar in the position of having to defend the authenticity of their instrument.

So - it is okay to ask for help in authenticating a guitar, but we require that you include the reason for your inquiry so that the Les Paul Forum does not become an indiscriminate "witch hunt". If you do not include a reason for your inquiry, your thread or post will be deleted by the Moderators.

Thank you in advance for your understanding and cooperation with this requirement. :eek:la:hank

Moreover, if you have doubts about the authenticity of the labels and you purchase the guitars, imagine the difficulty in trying to resell them in the future. I know that if I had such doubts then I'd walk away from the guitars. There are plenty of other opportunities to obtain doubt-free guitars out there.
 

Wally

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Joined
Feb 27, 2003
Messages
3,495
hipblulescat, here's one for you. See if you think this one is legitimate. Tell me how old this guitar is. Familiarization is the beginning of gaining the ability to asses originality, ime. The label in my guitar is an ink-stamped number with the proper size and font that was in use in 1966. IF you don't believe that, then forget about understanding Gibson labels from the '60's.




As you can see from Orange labels from the '60's--- and this one in this post which is not orange(clue)....sometimes the 'font' is not in question....because things are handwritten....as the quoted information you posted notes. Repro labels might not have as sharp of edges on the printed letters and frames. This is trued of the pickup labels for PAF's. That would catch my eye on the interior label before font would. And...as noted....there are many more clues to authenticity before one ever gets to the label.
 

hipbluescat

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Joined
Jan 21, 2005
Messages
356
hipblulescat, here's one for you. See if you think this one is legitimate. Tell me how old this guitar is. Familiarization is the beginning of gaining the ability to asses originality, ime. The label in my guitar is an ink-stamped number with the proper size and font that was in use in 1966. IF you don't believe that, then forget about understanding Gibson labels from the '60's.




As you can see from Orange labels from the '60's--- and this one in this post which is not orange(clue)....sometimes the 'font' is not in question....because things are handwritten....as the quoted information you posted notes. Repro labels might not have as sharp of edges on the printed letters and frames. This is trued of the pickup labels for PAF's. That would catch my eye on the interior label before font would. And...as noted....there are many more clues to authenticity before one ever gets to the label.

Does anyone have the answers.

I can not buy any guitar unless all parts are confirmed.
 

GuitarMikey

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Joined
Mar 1, 2013
Messages
910
Here's one of mine from late 64. Not a cherry "TDC" guitar, but funny how the orange label has the ES335 TD and the serial hand-written.
The guitar is 100% original other than the pickup covers being taken off at some point.
I also own a mid 64 TDC without the "Union Made". The serial number is stamped on the orange label on that guitar. Go figure...



 

hipbluescat

New member
Joined
Jan 21, 2005
Messages
356
Here's one of mine from late 64. Not a cherry "TDC" guitar, but funny how the orange label has the ES335 TD and the serial hand-written.
The guitar is 100% original other than the pickup covers being taken off at some point.
I also own a mid 64 TDC without the "Union Made". The serial number is stamped on the orange label on that guitar. Go figure...




Can anyone answer my original questions?
 
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