Questions on Vintage Gibsons and Vintage Epiphones answered by Mat Koehler

[Frutiger]

Hey Rob! Always a pleasure.

I have spent a lot of time with the ledgers. Probably more than anybody only because I have caught many things that correct the record, or the published history. I can tell you that every time I open a book, I see something totally wacky listed...12-string Hummingbirds, Cavern Green ES-335s, Long Scale ES-355s, etc. I feel like I'm pretty familiar with the guitars in major collections and I like to think I've had a finger on the pulse of the oddball Gibson for the last couple decades...but there are far more unique guitars, custom colors included, in the ledgers than what I see represented in the world. They're still out there for sure...or they got refinished in the 70s -- as was the case for one of the five custom color 1955 NAMM Show Les Pauls, sadly.

Regarding knobs -- this is what they look like without gold or black paint! So yes it is possible to paint the undersides to compliment the top color of the guitar. We have done that for a few runs and we have some Custom Shop reissue guitars coming later this year which will use the Beach White knobs (also seen on the Century lap steels). I'll let you speculate what those might be...

View attachment 26063View attachment 26064

Amazing, thanks Mat! Great to know there's more oddball stuff out there waiting to be discovered. Also thanks for confirming what I thought with the knobs. Id been thinking of doing a matching set for the Special (using repro knobs), just need to figure out an east way of stripping them!

I have another question if you don't mind, again very niche: I have a fascination with the V3 Ultratone in Seal Brown that Gibson didn't put into production (which I would say is the single coolest lap steel ever). To this day the only one I've ever seen is in the Gibson Electric Steel Guitars book. Do you know how many were actually made? Was it just a handful for Gibson reps to take round dealers? And have you ever seen one?

 

[jb_abides]

Hey Mat, here's a topic I find interesting, and desire more enlightenment on...

The finish color 'White'

• Despite the production of Historic Junior/Special Reissues in 'TV White', there was no such color in 58-60, just 'TV Yellow'...correct?
• The first 'White' finish would be a DuPont 2697-L based Polaris/Arctic White on the 61 Les Paul/SG Custom, yes? [Was the official name Polaris, Arctic or ... ?]
• When were other models first available in White, such as the ES-355? I recall a 63 or 65 ES-355... is there a good onset date or did things just start to trickle out in the wake of the the 61 Les Paul/SG Custom?
• From what I understand, 74 marked the first available Les Paul in White, the 74 Les Paul Custom including the Anniversary, is this accurate?
• Given those vintage models were DuPont 2697-L with no variants to approximate lacquer aging, at what year do cream or buttery finish 'White' colors first appear, with which names?
• What's the official naming history for 'White' from then on? I've seen nomenclature such as 'Classic White' used throughout USA and Custom for some time, also various uses of Polaris and Arctic seem come and go; however, now I see names such as 'Aspen White' that I don't recall seeing until recently... any rhyme or reason to the naming scheme for various 'White' finishes in Gibson's recent product architecture?

Thanks!

 

[S. Weiger]

Hello Mat, here's a special one:

Pat.no humbuckers baseplate flange corners were initially sharp (same as PAF's), but changed to more rounded corners somewhere in the mid- to late 60's. Do you (or anyone reading this thread) know the year that happened?

 

[matkoehler]

Amazing, thanks Mat! Great to know there's more oddball stuff out there waiting to be discovered. Also thanks for confirming what I thought with the knobs. Id been thinking of doing a matching set for the Special (using repro knobs), just need to figure out an east way of stripping them!

I have another question if you don't mind, again very niche: I have a fascination with the V3 Ultratone in Seal Brown that Gibson didn't put into production (which I would say is the single coolest lap steel ever). To this day the only one I've ever seen is in the Gibson Electric Steel Guitars book. Do you know how many were actually made? Was it just a handful for Gibson reps to take round dealers? And have you ever seen one?

Hold this space. A few years after Andre Duchossoir published his incredible Gibson Electric Steel book (which should be in every Gibson enthusiast's collection IMO), I reached out to him with some archive discoveries ranging from blueprints to updated shipping totals. He proceeded to work on an update/revision which in turn created wonderful friendship filled with weekly correspondence. I'm still absolutely gutted that he is gone. Us guitar geeks will be forever standing on his shoulders.

Anyway, that instrument was a topic of our conversions and yours truly is obsessed with it as well. I'll follow up with a separate post on it in the vintage section, as it probably warrants it.

 

[matkoehler]

Hey Mat, here's a topic I find interesting, and desire more enlightenment on...

The finish color 'White'

• Despite the production of Historic Junior/Special Reissues in 'TV White', there was no such color in 58-60, just 'TV Yellow'...correct?
• The first 'White' finish would be a DuPont 2697-L based Polaris/Arctic White on the 61 Les Paul/SG Custom, yes? [Was the official name Polaris, Arctic or ... ?]
• When were other models first available in White, such as the ES-355? I recall a 63 or 65 ES-355... is there a good onset date or did things just start to trickle out in the wake of the the 61 Les Paul/SG Custom?
• From what I understand, 74 marked the first available Les Paul in White, the 74 Les Paul Custom including the Anniversary, is this accurate?
• Given those vintage models were DuPont 2697-L with no variants to approximate lacquer aging, at what year do cream or buttery finish 'White' colors first appear, with which names?
• What's the official naming history for 'White' from then on? I've seen nomenclature such as 'Classic White' used throughout USA and Custom for some time, also various uses of Polaris and Arctic seem come and go; however, now I see names such as 'Aspen White' that I don't recall seeing until recently... any rhyme or reason to the naming scheme for various 'White' finishes in Gibson's recent product architecture?

Thanks!

Good questions. I'll give you the whole overview of all things White, TV and Cream.

White was always referred to as White, whether in ledgers or in catalogs (with the exception of the Beach White on the Century lap steel). That is, until the 1964 mailer introducing the Firebird and Thunderbird and the new colors ("6 New Solid Body Guitars/10 Exciting Custom Colors"). The new "Polaris White" introduced in the mailer appears to be the same as the existing "White Finish" of the SG Custom. Just a new name. And the catalogs continued to list white guitars as just White. In the 1970s, Alpine White was introduced on the Les Paul Custom...a bright white that yellowed to a greater degree (Randy Rhoads) due to a different clear coat formula. In the 1980s, Classic White debuted and it was more of an eggshell white than Alpine, mildly reminiscent of how Polaris or Alpine would age over time. And the clear coat was more UV protective by then. I have no idea what Aspen White is, but my guess it is a color requested by a dealer with a color sample through the Made to Measure program...and that the dealer may have meant to request Alpine White.

"TV Yellow" was not an official color name in the 1950s and 60s...just the modern day term for the yellow color of Les Paul TV models. The first TV models were closer to Natural finish -- using only the milky-white natural filler and sealer and top coat. The TV models' catalog color description of "Limed Mahogany" was not accurate to the actual process (white base coat + filler + sealer + clear coat). What's more, our original 1950s TV model spec sheets list the finish only as "Glidden Eventide"...which, based on my research, appears to be pink. Very confusing. See attached 1950s Glidden color chart.

In any event, the "Yellow" of TV models came primarily from the top coat + UV light exposure. The base coat was likely just white (not pink...ha). But you do see more "banana yellow" examples in the double-cut era, and also some guitars that, to me, look like they skipped the filler step of the TV process.

In the early 1960s, you begin to see mention in catalog of "Cream" and "TV Cream". This is confusing. Most of the time, this simply meant the color we know now as TV Yellow. HOWEVER, there were rare batches of SG Les Paul Juniors and Specials made in opaque "Cream" and entered into the ledger that way. Of the few examples I have seen, the Cream color looks like...you guess it...White. Full circle!

Today, we use Classic White -- an eggshell white, Alpine White -- a bright white, and Polaris White -- somewhere in between...call it Ivory. At Custom Shop, requesting antique in your clear coat will change the appearance of course, so remember that if you are ordering a Made to Measure. If you want a '59 Les Paul in Alpine White, the base spec includes two coats of antique...so if left that way, it will look light pastel yellow when complete. We are pretty good about catching that, but illustrates the impact of the antiqued top coat.

 

[jb_abides]

I have no idea what Aspen White is, but my guess it is a color requested by a dealer with a color sample through the Made to Measure program...and that the dealer may have meant to request Alpine White.

Thanks Mat.

FYI on 'Aspen White' I see it from a range of different dealers via the Custom Shop mainly on ES as well as LP Customs; it appears to be highly yellowed to butter cream akin to an "Aged Randy."

From Rainbow Guitars --



From The Music Zoo --

 

[matkoehler]

Thanks Mat.

FYI on 'Aspen White' I see it from a range of different dealers via the Custom Shop mainly on ES as well as LP Customs; it appears to be highly yellowed to butter cream akin to an "Aged Randy."

Yeah saw that but can verify it is not a core Gibson color -- probably a color match for Japan or something that took on a life of its own with other dealers ordering (probably with and without antique as well).

 

[Frutiger]

Hold this space. A few years after Andre Duchossoir published his incredible Gibson Electric Steel book (which should be in every Gibson enthusiast's collection IMO), I reached out to him with some archive discoveries ranging from blueprints to updated shipping totals. He proceeded to work on an update/revision which in turn created wonderful friendship filled with weekly correspondence. I'm still absolutely gutted that he is gone. Us guitar geeks will be forever standing on his shoulders.

Anyway, that instrument was a topic of our conversions and yours truly is obsessed with it as well. I'll follow up with a separate post on it in the vintage section, as it probably warrants it.

AMAZING. Cannot wait to see this, thanks again Mat!

 

[mikeslub]

How about this 1982 Artisan of mine? Love the lacquer yellowing!

 

[Cliff Gress]

Hello Mat. Thanks for being a presence on this Forum.
My Gibson vintage guitar is my 1963 double cut Melody Maker. The frets are the lowest and widest of all my Gibsons. Could you tell me what size they might be?

 

[Arch D. Bunker]

Hey Mat, here's a topic I find interesting, and desire more enlightenment on...

The finish color 'White'

• The first 'White' finish would be a DuPont 2697-L based Polaris/Arctic White on the 61 Les Paul/SG Custom, yes? [Was the official name Polaris, Arctic or ... ?]
• When were other models first available in White, such as the ES-355? I recall a 63 or 65 ES-355... is there a good onset date or did things just start to trickle out in the wake of the the 61 Les Paul/SG Custom?
• From what I understand, 74 marked the first available Les Paul in White, the 74 Les Paul Custom including the Anniversary, is this accurate?

Thanks!

The Robb Lawrence book has a picture of a white 1950s LP Custom with 3 P90s, but that was likely a one off.

Maybe this is a candidate for the first catalog model in white:

 

[jb_abides]

The Robb Lawrence book has a picture of a white 1950s LP Custom with 3 P90s, but that was likely a one off.

Maybe this is a candidate for the first catalog model in white:
View attachment 26517
View attachment 26515

Agree and thanks. I've seen the EDS range in white.

FWIW: the thrust of my inquiry was regarding advertised white finishes readily available in 'production' offerings like the LP SG Custom, etc.

 

[hankjmcc]

HI Mat, Thanks for doing this! Were the Early PAF Goldtops with Black Parts Factory Out of Phase?

 

[Arch D. Bunker]

Hi Mat - wanted to ask what the idea was behind the truncated Les Paul bodies with the sharp cutaways that started appearing on some instruments in 1976, and later became the norm (even on the Heritage reissues), only to be phased out again in the early 80s?

 

[matkoehler]

The Robb Lawrence book has a picture of a white 1950s LP Custom with 3 P90s, but that was likely a one off.

Maybe this is a candidate for the first catalog model in white:
View attachment 26517
View attachment 26515

You are correct -- the Double 12 is the first catalog listing for Spanish-style guitar in white. And outside of that, the 1921 catalog introduced the white A-3 mandolin...1955 introduced the Ultratone and Century lap steel in Ivory and Beach White, respectively...and 1959 catalog introduced the BR-9 lap steel in Ivory.

One thing I forgot to mention -- in a factory environment, white is not a friendly paint to work with, particularly when using nitrocellulose lacquer. Susceptible to airborne particles in the finish, as well as aniline dye and other contaminants. That is the predominant reason for not being a more common core model color throughout Gibson history (and even today).

 

[matkoehler]

Hello Mat, here's a special one:

Pat.no humbuckers baseplate flange corners were initially sharp (same as PAF's), but changed to more rounded corners somewhere in the mid- to late 60's. Do you (or anyone reading this thread) know the year that happened?

View attachment 26480

Our pickup expert says he thinks it happened right around 1970.

 

[matkoehler]

HI Mat, Thanks for doing this! Were the Early PAF Goldtops with Black Parts Factory Out of Phase?

I have not handled more than maybe two originals nor do I remember what they sounded like in the middle position. Not of lot of clues here in the archive either, for that era anyway. Obviously the 3-Pickup Les Paul Customs were intended to be out of phase. And we know some bursts -- for no apparent reason -- were out of phase from the factory, like Joe B's Magellan. If you have seen more than a handful original black parts goldtops (should be dark back, serial numbers not later than 7 33xx range) that are factory out of phase, then they probably were intended to be that way originally before being standard on 3-pickup LPs only.

If the examples are random or sporadic like with bursts, all bets are off and no strong theory from my end other than someone grabbed the wrong pickup out of a bin before installing the covers and pole screws (the only guitars that came standard with OOP pickups used gold parts, not nickel). Definitely a mysterious subject -- thanks for bringing it to the table!

 

[matkoehler]

Hi Mat - wanted to ask what the idea was behind the truncated Les Paul bodies with the sharp cutaways that started appearing on some instruments in 1976, and later became the norm (even on the Heritage reissues), only to be phased out again in the early 80s?

Great question unfortunately it's another one where I haven't been able to find concrete evidence. I believe there are only two real possibilities:

1) A change was made to help streamline production processes or reduce waste. Binding the cutaway is the biggest paint point in the binding process, however I'm not sure how that specific change would have aided anything.

OR

2) It was a conscious aesthetic change to help improve or modernize the look of Les Pauls or to provide market differentiation.

 

[S. Weiger]

Our pickup expert says he thinks it happened right around 1970.

Thanks a lot!

The reason I'm so nerdy is, with that knowledge you might easier authenticate an alledged 1963 - 1965 nickel cover pat.no. humbucker.
Say a scammer have a late 1969 to very early 70's gold plated pat.no sticker HB with unopened covers & braided metal shielding wire.
If you remove all visible gold carefully, replace the gold plated pole screws with aged nickel repro's, -voila, you now have a much more desirable and expensive vintage nickel cover pat.no. humbucker. Exept the feet corners are rounded..

 

[sws1]

HI Mat, Thanks for doing this! Were the Early PAF Goldtops with Black Parts Factory Out of Phase?

Mine was not