R6 Jaeger Make Over

[RocknRollShakeUp]

Cool thread!
You mentioned the neck angle being changed. Do you happen to know from what degree to what degree?
Thanks!

 

[bursty]

News just in and an explanation from Florian.

"If you take a straight edge and position it on the area where the fretboard is glued on the maplecap of the body you notice that you literally played "on air" - because the fretboard did not have any contact with the neck".

I thought the neck tenon had contact on three surfaces .......

 

[AA00475Bassman]

I really find myself searching for a delicate way to express my thoughts - reference illustration .

 

[bursty]

I thought the neck tenon had contact on three surfaces .......

Oh crap, my bad; it mentions the fret board and the maple cap ....... not the tenon ......

well, I should get more sleep before I read crap on my phone at work and reply with stupid s***

but let's just contemplate Gibson charging $5K for a new R6 and producing such crap; Now I feel a little better

 

[Revolver1]

Hey Wilko, hows things?

That's a fair question, how mechanically minded am I?

Well I've worked as an Electrician / Tester and Supervisor on some of the largest Construction Projects in Europe here in London for 22 years I then moved into a Managerial role and have worked as an Electrical Construction Manager for a further 7 years and then a further 3 odd years as a Electrical Commissioning and Hand Over Manager.

I've owned six Super Bikes over the years and other than where specialised equipment is required like re-mapping the ECG I've done all the maintenance and repairs myself.

I've been crew on a 55ft Yacht and sailed from Gibraltar to Greece. When the engine blew a head gasket off the coast of Spain we had to land in Spain for repair. We had to strip the engine and remove half of it from the Yacht to send the block off to be machined and when it was returned we reassembled it there on the dock and rebuilt the engine before we continued on to Greece.

I've built 10, replica guitar tube amps all of which are constructed with the exact NOS components as the original units and my work has always received compliment for its neatness and attention to detail. Much like my Electrical work. (I'm a bit OCD you could say).

I've lost count of the replica pedals I've built.

I started doing my own guitar set ups, making nuts and radiusing the saddles maybe 12 years ago now. I had a les Paul Classic and a 2001 Standard I had from new and just from use the nuts had worn out and were buzzing at the first fret.

I sent them off to 5 different repair shops here in London but every time they came back I was very unhappy with the way they felt to play. This eventually led me to doing it my self and learning exactly what it is that I like.

I read a tone of literature and spoke with many luthiers and techs to absorb as much as I could on the subject. I probably spent about 2 years experimenting with different approaches to the set up and just for my own interest, what happens if you do this or do that.

I've plugged holes re lacquered and re fitted ABR-1 bridges. The only thing I won't do Is fret work. I'd rather leave this to a pro Luthier, a skilled craftsman whose experience and skills far exceed my own. I have a guy I hold in high regard and as I said before I took the guitar to him for levelling. It made it alot better but didn't fix the issue. He was in agreement the issue is a dead spot.

For the record I have played 5 guitars in various big name dealerships here in London that I have passed on due to dead spots, its perhaps not as rare as you might think. Dead spots and Wolf notes, it's just one of those things when dealing with a vibrating organic material like wood.

Please don't think I am here to speak badly of Gibson Custom Historic. I own 9 Custom Shop Guitars, 4 of which are Gibsons and I love them all.

Maybe I could explain the saddle thing this way. When you get the guitar from the shop it will be set up and hopefully the strings are radiused to the same radius as the fret board.

If you change the height of the bridge the intonation will be thrown out and require adjustment. If you adjust the saddles the spacing will be thrown out ie adjusting flat pushes the string to the edge of the board and adjusting sharp will pull it in towards the middle. Any adjustment will also throw out the radius that can be confirmed with a radius gauge.

I always get it all set up as I want then intonate. I then replace the saddles with new ones positioned in the same spot as the ones I removed. This means the intonation will be pretty much spot on when I'm done and if it does require adjustment it will only be very slight.

So what I was finding was that if the offending string was ever so slightly sharp or flat it would ring out fine but as soon as I adjusted it to perfect pitch intonation wise the note would become mute. This was also affected by the truss adjustment. As I said Dead Spots and Wolf notes are a resonance issue involving the cancellation or boosting of frequency's at a certain pitch.

I've also read that guitars that suffer this phenomenon can sound exceptionally good on all the other notes due to the fact it's a very resonant guitar.

Anyway I guess what I'm trying to say Is that at the tender age of 49 I think I've learned a thing or two about the world around me and I tie my own shoe laces every morning.

 

[Revolver1]

Hey RocknRollShakeUp, great handle...

No, the angle will remain the same, but theres always going to be a slight variation within tolerance because its wood so it's not likely to go back in exactly the same.

There is some work that will be done on the joint itself. I think alot of it is to do with the gap shown between the Maple Cap and the end of the fret board on Page 2. I'm sure we'll get to see it all in the upcoming photographs.

From my point of view when discussing the work to be done, I was just thinking about anything that could be done to change the way this guitar resonates. For me I just think do what ever we can while we're there and having the neck out joint modified and reset with slightly different glue will almost certainly have some affect.

That guitar Is a 2019 so I could be wrong but I beleive the geometry Is correct from the factory.

It was more about breaking that joint and redoing it and the improvement at the end of the fret board.

 

[Revolver1]

Speaking of neck joints, we have some more action.





I said to Florian I'm experiencing strange conflicting emotions. I never thought I could feel so happy seeing my guitar like that.

 

[Revolver1]

Strip Tease?

Florian said the finish is relitively quite thick with alot of plasticiser.

I can see how it appeares kind of flexible in the photos.

Can't help but wonder what might be under that gold finish.

 

[ourmaninthenorth]

What a belting thread.

Can't tell you how much I'm rooting for this guitar - I hope it's resonating before you enter the room it's in.

Tyson P90's - have em in a 300+ year old one piece chunk of Belize Mahogany, funnily enough with a hand carved soft V neck, with a 61 SG as it's template.

Through a Harry Joyce DR103 with one of Stu Castledine's V2 ( Rams head) in front...you're tooled for combat.

Are you making the journey back for the guitar ( with this odyssey under it's belt the word "guitar" doesn't really cut it, this baby needs a name - strangely mixing up mythology - I think The Argonaut suits it.....)

Continued cheering from the Norf....

Paul.

 

[Revolver1]

Hey Paul, thanks for the kind words mate.

Yeah, I really like those Tyson P90's. Had a long old wait during lock down and was getting worried he might have gone out of business but it all worked out and was well worth the wait.

That sounds like a truly awesome setup you have there, very interesting Guitar.

I love Castledine products, all of them..... he's a great guy. There was a guy who used to be over on the Metroamp site, handle; Shakti and he had him build him a pedal, I think it was the Olympic Studios mixing desk console pre amp in a box to get those Hendrix live at the BBC tones and it sounded incredible. The Studio is long gone but the building is still there not far from here.

DR103? Whoaa, you must be def as a post. Ha, ha..... I'm surprised I can't hear It down here in Acton. I sometimes wonder if I should have gone with the 103 for sure. Everyone says it's the 504 but more. Cool amp.

Ideally I'd love to go back and pick it up, that would bring full circle to the experience but I'm not sure I'm going to be able to swing it. I've kinda cleaned my self out a little and need to start looking for work.

It was worth it though and I've had a chance to finish up a few amp related jobs I've been wanting to get done.

Oh, and The Argonaut.... I love it, I think you nailed it.

Cheers for the encouragement.

 

[Tubes 'n Wood]

Thank you for sharing this journey in awesome pics!

 

[Wilko]

Hey Wilko, hows things?

That's a fair question, how mechanically minded am I?

Well I've worked as an Electrician / Tester and Supervisor on some of the largest Construction Projects in Europe here in London for 22 years I then moved into a Managerial role and have worked as an Electrical Construction Manager for a further 7 years and then a further 3 odd years as a Electrical Commissioning and Hand Over Manager.

I've owned six Super Bikes over the years and other than where specialised equipment is required like re-mapping the ECG I've done all the maintenance and repairs myself.

I've been crew on a 55ft Yacht and sailed from Gibraltar to Greece. When the engine blew a head gasket off the coast of Spain we had to land in Spain for repair. We had to strip the engine and remove half of it from the Yacht to send the block off to be machined and when it was returned we reassembled it there on the dock and rebuilt the engine before we continued on to Greece.

I've built 10, replica guitar tube amps all of which are constructed with the exact NOS components as the original units and my work has always received compliment for its neatness and attention to detail. Much like my Electrical work. (I'm a bit OCD you could say).

I've lost count of the replica pedals I've built.

I started doing my own guitar set ups, making nuts and radiusing the saddles maybe 12 years ago now. I had a les Paul Classic and a 2001 Standard I had from new and just from use the nuts had worn out and were buzzing at the first fret.

I sent them off to 5 different repair shops here in London but every time they came back I was very unhappy with the way they felt to play. This eventually led me to doing it my self and learning exactly what it is that I like.

I read a tone of literature and spoke with many luthiers and techs to absorb as much as I could on the subject. I probably spent about 2 years experimenting with different approaches to the set up and just for my own interest, what happens if you do this or do that.

I've plugged holes re lacquered and re fitted ABR-1 bridges. The only thing I won't do Is fret work. I'd rather leave this to a pro Luthier, a skilled craftsman whose experience and skills far exceed my own. I have a guy I hold in high regard and as I said before I took the guitar to him for levelling. It made it alot better but didn't fix the issue. He was in agreement the issue is a dead spot.

For the record I have played 5 guitars in various big name dealerships here in London that I have passed on due to dead spots, its perhaps not as rare as you might think. Dead spots and Wolf notes, it's just one of those things when dealing with a vibrating organic material like wood.

Please don't think I am here to speak badly of Gibson Custom Historic. I own 9 Custom Shop Guitars, 4 of which are Gibsons and I love them all.

Maybe I could explain the saddle thing this way. When you get the guitar from the shop it will be set up and hopefully the strings are radiused to the same radius as the fret board.

If you change the height of the bridge the intonation will be thrown out and require adjustment. If you adjust the saddles the spacing will be thrown out ie adjusting flat pushes the string to the edge of the board and adjusting sharp will pull it in towards the middle. Any adjustment will also throw out the radius that can be confirmed with a radius gauge.

I always get it all set up as I want then intonate. I then replace the saddles with new ones positioned in the same spot as the ones I removed. This means the intonation will be pretty much spot on when I'm done and if it does require adjustment it will only be very slight.

So what I was finding was that if the offending string was ever so slightly sharp or flat it would ring out fine but as soon as I adjusted it to perfect pitch intonation wise the note would become mute. This was also affected by the truss adjustment. As I said Dead Spots and Wolf notes are a resonance issue involving the cancellation or boosting of frequency's at a certain pitch.

I've also read that guitars that suffer this phenomenon can sound exceptionally good on all the other notes due to the fact it's a very resonant guitar.

Anyway I guess what I'm trying to say Is that at the tender age of 49 I think I've learned a thing or two about the world around me and I tie my own shoe laces every morning.

While you seem experienced with mechanical things, you write that "If you adjust the saddles the spacing will be thrown out ie adjusting flat pushes the string to the edge of the board and adjusting sharp will pull it in towards the middle". That makes absolutely no sense. Adjusting intonation has ZERO to do with string spacing. My original question and reason I posted is because what I'm getting at is that moving a saddle can and will most likely kill a string. The is a little bend/kink in the string after it's tuned. once the saddle is moved, that kink is now either on the string side, or the tailpiece side and is chnging the string's properties. once the saddle is moved, new strings need to go on the guitar.

Another thing, TYailpieces were never "parallel to the bridge". Also on a guitar makeover, I don't see any reason to move the tailpiece, and actually recommend against it the the original hole is always better than a moved hole with filler.

 

[RocknRollShakeUp]

Hey RocknRollShakeUp, great handle...

No, the angle will remain the same, but theres always going to be a slight variation within tolerance because its wood so it's not likely to go back in exactly the same.

There is some work that will be done on the joint itself. I think alot of it is to do with the gap shown between the Maple Cap and the end of the fret board on Page 2. I'm sure we'll get to see it all in the upcoming photographs.

From my point of view when discussing the work to be done, I was just thinking about anything that could be done to change the way this guitar resonates. For me I just think do what ever we can while we're there and having the neck out joint modified and reset with slightly different glue will almost certainly have some affect.

That guitar Is a 2019 so I could be wrong but I beleive the geometry Is correct from the factory.

It was more about breaking that joint and redoing it and the improvement at the end of the fret board.

Thank you Sir, and thanks for the explanation.
Yeah the neck angle seemed good to go to begin with, so that’s why I was wondering. But clearly I misunderstood, my apologies.
Best of luck with the project!

 

[Revolver1]

Hey Tubes 'n Wood , nice to meet you and thanks.

RocknRollShakeUp, no apologies needed at all. Keep on Rockin'.

 

[Revolver1]

Hey Wilco,

Maybe think of it this way if you will. A simple question of Trigonometry.

String spacing at the nut is narrow, string spacing at the bridge Is wide. The saddles move backward and forwards in a straight line.

Think about it..........

Failing that get yourself a Stew Mac string spacing ruler, check your spacing, then adjust one of your saddles and see if it still lines up with your ruler.

As for the tail peice position, honestly I wouldn't know. I've only ever seen one real 59 in my life in person and I was just a kid. I certainly wouldn't have noticed.

I would have to defer to Florian's greater knowledge and experience on the subject. He has probably handled and worked on more Vintage Original Gibsons than I've seen pictures of, I'd be inclined to trust his highly skilled observation.

Either way for my purposes this is where the strings anchor to the body and I would suspect that changing it's position would have an effect and change the way the guitar resonates. For that reason alone I'm up for having that work done, not a cosmetic thing.

I don't have a problem with the hole being plugged with the correct wood and glued into place. Not an issue for me. At worst it would change the way the guitar resonates wich is what im hoping to achieve here anyway.

Hope that makes sense.

Don't think I'm being argumentative, discussion and opinions are always cool and welcome with me.

Cheers

 

[Revolver1]

"The Argonaut" I think this is going to stick. It's a good fit.

Perhaps I should have called the thread "Jaeger and the Argonaugt"

 

[NINFNM]

TOM position on vintage Les Pauls varies, but for the most part they are not completely parallel, but have some inclination


Are you sure that he will move the tailpiece and not the bridge posts instead? Moving the tailpiece to place it parallel to your TOM would be crazy and wrong.

 

[Revolver1]

Hey NINNFM awesome info and pics. Very cool.

We did discuss the position of the bridge but Florian convinced me it was fine the way it is.

I guess on the vintage specimens as shown above there is a bit of variation in there due to the hand made element but I'd only be guessing.

Some of those shots above look ever so slightly different from one to another to me anyway.

The Gold Top and the last shot look like there is a slight angle on the tail peice. No way for me to know if that was intentional or just a hand made anomaly.

I really don't know and do not profess to be any sort of an expert. For me as I said before it's really just about anything I can do to change the guitars resonance and not a quirky cosmetic thing.

 

[MarcB]

The wild ride is just beginning.

Thank you for taking us on this journey.. a very well documented story so far.. and a great read.
I’m invested in this story now.. ? and look forward to the updates..
I know Acton Town very well.. as I used Survival Studios rehearsal rooms in N Acton for decades.. (wonder if it’s still there?) ?

 

[Pekri 59]

Thank you very much to show this Makeover. You are a happy men . I have a wonderful R9, that Florian have, to make a Bavarian Makeover. His work is absolutely amazing and perfect.