The Fattest clean tone for Jazz.

[bolek]

Hi. I recently got a ES-335 for really cheap. This is a REALLy bright sounding guitar.
I had wanted a 335-type guitar for long time, so basically I bought it just because it was cheap.
According the seller, it has 500k pots(volume and tone) and a set of Duncan Seth lover pickups. And I use a D'addario 012-052 set.

I have been a Jazz guitarist for 9 years, so I want ONLY JAZZ TONE from the guitar. And I'd like to get as fat and thick jazz sound as possible from the neck pickup. No Clapton, No Allman, No Gibbons. My favorite guitar sound is ahh, I don't know. Maybe Kurt Rosenwinkel.

I have done some research in this forum, now I think of getting a Lindy fralin regular neck humbucker(8K) and 300k volume pot and new RS Jensen tone cap.

Also thinking about Duncan Benedetto A6 pickup....

What do you guys experts(specially jazz guitarists) here think about the ideas?

Any suggestions will be appriciated!!

Thanks in advance

bolek

 

[Patch]

The Gibson Jazz boxes, the Super 400, Wes Montgomery and the L5 use the 57 Classics. The same pup that I have in my 336. You can get some nice fat jazzy tone out of these.

 

[ES335TD]

I think you will do fine with the pickups identified. The biggest factor in my opinion is to set the guitar up for jazz (if you haven't already). That would mean a higher action and flatwound strings (.13 or higher). The main "fat" tones come when using the neck pickup only, and the tone rolled off to ~3.
That is not to say other settings/setups won't work well. The solid block in the 335 does enhance the high end, which is not as "pure" a jazz tone as an ES-330 or a bigger jazz box. Hope this helps.

 

[Average Joe]

What amp do you use? personally I can get a very jazz approved sound on the neck PU of my 335 into a Blues Jr., esp with flatwounds. Roll the tone down a bit, and it gets really smokey.

...now, if only my chops were as good as good as my tone ;-)

 

[mad dog]

At least with the stock pickups in my '66, sounds like Kenny Burrell (the guitar, not me) on neck only, tone rolled off or nearly so. Your pickups may be brighter than the old ones, I don't know. Between excellent (no mud) neck p/u and a very effective tone control, there's a lot of jazz in these guitars.

 

[Litcrit]

I think you will do fine with the pickups identified. The biggest factor in my opinion is to set the guitar up for jazz (if you haven't already). That would mean a higher action and flatwound strings (.13 or higher). The main "fat" tones come when using the neck pickup only, and the tone rolled off to ~3.
That is not to say other settings/setups won't work well. The solid block in the 335 does enhance the high end, which is not as "pure" a jazz tone as an ES-330 or a bigger jazz box. Hope this helps.

Yep: you can get FATTER, but you won't get that "Bloop" tone that comes from a full hollow body.

Another option: SELL the 335 (you bought it cheap, right?) and use the money for a "real" jazz box. I'm partial to Gibsons, and a nice 175 will get you there. There are also plenty of high quality solid top (non-laminate) cheaper alternatives for roughly what a dot reissue goes for that will get you more authentic jazz tone.

 

[Gitfiddler]

Since you've already heard the benefits of Classic 57, and you are using good jazz strings, try switching to heavier picks. The heavier the pick, the fatter the tone. That's cheaper than pickups or another guitar.

 

[plaintop60]

Hi. I recently got a ES-335 for really cheap. This is a REALLy bright sounding guitar.
I had wanted a 335-type guitar for long time, so basically I bought it just because it was cheap.
According the seller, it has 500k pots(volume and tone) and a set of Duncan Seth lover pickups. And I use a D'addario 012-052 set.

I have been a Jazz guitarist for 9 years, so I want ONLY JAZZ TONE from the guitar. And I'd like to get as fat and thick jazz sound as possible from the neck pickup. No Clapton, No Allman, No Gibbons. My favorite guitar sound is ahh, I don't know. Maybe Kurt Rosenwinkel.

I have done some research in this forum, now I think of getting a Lindy fralin regular neck humbucker(8K) and 300k volume pot and new RS Jensen tone cap.

Also thinking about Duncan Benedetto A6 pickup....

What do you guys experts(specially jazz guitarists) here think about the ideas?

Any suggestions will be appriciated!!

Thanks in advance

bolek

In my experience it's pretty hard to get anything but full, fat, thick and rich tones from an es 335. As much as I love es335's, it is unfortunately impossible to get credible jazz tones from any semi-hollow guitar. Semi's are good for fusion, blues, rock, etc., but much of the guitar tone we associate with jazz is a result of the attack, harmonic complexity and quick decay of an archtop. The sustain block in an es335 smooths the intial attack, adds sustain and changes the fundamantal/overtone ratio to something that is more similar to a solid body guitar. That said, try installing a Rosewood or ebony bridge on the guitar. It will lose much of the solid body sustain caused by the sustain block and impart a tone that is more reminiscent of a jazz tone with the requisite "pop" and quick decay for a good jazz tone. This works even better on es135's because they have a balsa block instead of maple and which are very inexpensive and easily found for relatively little money.

 

[mingus]

Aside from obtaining a jazz box such as an ES-175, L5 or Super 400, you might try using flatwound, pure nickel strings to get a thicker, woodier sound out of your 335 with a bit less sustain. Another thing you could try is lowering the pickups a bit to see if they become a bit fatter sounding and less bright.

Let us know how it works out for you.

 

[BillyB]

Never mind pickups etc - what amp are you using? how's it set? I believe that Kurt Rosenwinkle uses a new D'angelico - thinline single cut hollowbody, though I think he's also got the D'angelico ES 335 type model too.

If you are staying with the 335 (I don't see why not - for contemporary Jazz, they are perfectly fine) i'd put heavier strings on - yes, even try 12 flatwounds. Cut the treble on the amp to 3 or 4 mids and bass up to 6 or 7. Guitar tone controls need playing with too!

the last think you want to be doing is getting concerned about 'vintage this that or the other' - just concentrate on the music dude.

 

[ES345]

I have studied, and played jazz since the early '60's, on many different guitars, i like the 345/335 because it has a great jazz tone, no feedback worries so you can concentrate on the music, technique, etc. without having to try and control feedback, 12-51 flatwounds on these guitars since the early 60's. they have paf's, but i have played a few new ones with classic '57's and they sound great. I think the 335/345, i also have an ibanez scofield model and to me they are great guitars for jazz. Twin reverb, super reverb or even a budda, they have fat mellow sound.

peace

 

[bolek]

Thanks for your comments, everyone!

My main problem is I have to use a Roland JC-55 in my school(I'm in Jazz Performance program in a college). There is one old Polytone which sounds really good(even with my guitar), but it's taken by graduate students most of the time.

My own amp is a Reverend Hellhound. But I can't bring it with me everyday here in NYC.

My guitar's action is already pretty high because I try to keep the same feel as my acoustic guitar(Guys at a guitar store was suprised how high my action is).

For pick, I use round side of teardrop picks like Adam Rogers or Pat Metheny to get bassier tone than common picking style.

One of my good friends uses a ES-333 which he put 57 classic and his sound always cuts through in the mix. My sound is really bright and when I roll off tone control it gets too dark. Acoustically, I didn't see that big difference(I'm not sure if he uses flatwound, I have to ask him) between my guitar and his guitar, but when it's plugged the difference gets much bigger.

I still want to get pickups and volume pot -wise advice if possible!

Anyway, thank you very much for the comments!!

bolek

 

[Leña_Costoso]

You're going to think I'm daft, or full of bollacks, but I do know a fellow who plays three nights a week, every week, using a Twin and a Strat - all jazz. His Strat is an American Deluxe from the mid-90s. Go figure.

But, to your tone... 57Classic' in the ES-135 I gave to a friend were fantastically warm and singing in that guitar. That was a set of 57Classic/57Classic not Classic plus... but you could easily sub both pickups as Classic plus models. Suire, the ES-135 is a half inch thicker than the ES-333, but its center blocked (this one was a later one, dunno the block wood). It also has a maple neck, which tends to brighten things as well.

 

[BillyB]

Bolek.

I'm presuming that your ES 335 is a fairly recent one??

Don't change your guitar's pickups. You have to think that you have a Gibson ES 335 - a long standing choice for many over the years. It's not a cheap copy, it's the real thing - there's nothing wrong with the current pickups - they're the same as in my L-5 and Custom Shop ES 345. Before Rosenwinkle used D'angelico guitars, he had a recent ES 335 - like yours. String with 11's or 12's flatwounds.

The problem sounds like an amp one to me - you've said that through a polytone it's much better.

Therein lies the problem - the Roland Jazz Chorus amp.

Buy a Polytone, a set of flatwounds and get on with making great music.

 

[plaintop60]

Thanks for your comments, everyone!

My main problem is I have to use a Roland JC-55 in my school(I'm in Jazz Performance program in a college). There is one old Polytone which sounds really good(even with my guitar), but it's taken by graduate students most of the time.

My own amp is a Reverend Hellhound. But I can't bring it with me everyday here in NYC.

My guitar's action is already pretty high because I try to keep the same feel as my acoustic guitar(Guys at a guitar store was suprised how high my action is).

For pick, I use round side of teardrop picks like Adam Rogers or Pat Metheny to get bassier tone than common picking style.

One of my good friends uses a ES-333 which he put 57 classic and his sound always cuts through in the mix. My sound is really bright and when I roll off tone control it gets too dark. Acoustically, I didn't see that big difference(I'm not sure if he uses flatwound, I have to ask him) between my guitar and his guitar, but when it's plugged the difference gets much bigger.

I still want to get pickups and volume pot -wise advice if possible!

Anyway, thank you very much for the comments!!

bolek

Cange your tone caps to .015....this way when your roll off the tone control it will not cut so deeply and you will get a much better mellow tone.

 

[Gitfiddler]

Now that we have a bit more information, it sounds like ineffective tone pots in your 335, and an anemic amplifier at the campus.

Pat Martino gets the fattest L5-ish jazz sound I've ever heard from his small-bodied, signature model semi-hollow. After a concert last year at Yoshi's, I asked him how he got such a huge dark tone from it, to which he said..."With today's technology, you can get almost any guitar to sound the way you want it to...".

I think he uses 15-56 strings on his guitar, and sends it through a Raezer's Edges system. Extreme, but effective for his signature jazz tone.

Keep experimenting with your 335 and amp set-up. You will get the tone you are after.

 

[Wilko]

You don't need to change the pickups.
CHange the pot to a lower value. That will lower the resonant peak in relation to the other tones and flatten the curve.

Use your tone control. If it's not doing the right things, get a higher value cap. Higher value cap will lower the point where the high shelf starts.

Note: I totally agree that a 335 is not the right tool for the job. If you really like that look, go for the 330. They are cheaper and sound a lot better for what you want to do.

 

[Tonedog]

I have the Fralin 8K / 9k set in a Les Paul. The neck pickup has a nice round sound to it, and should be thicker than the Seth Lover, which is lower resisitance and will be brighter.

Pots will make a difference too. the 300k pots (either all the way around or starting with just the volume pots) will also change the pickup loading and their sound as Wilco mentioned earlier.

 

[bobbya]

I don't understand caps/pots,m but I have a '70 335 that I like a lot and am reluctant to mess with, but it is a bit on the bright side, and I would like a jazzier tone without losing the rock snarl (don't know if I can have both) What type pots and caps are in there (it's stock) and what would 300K pots and .015 caps do to the sound?

 

[Wilko]

300k would make it a bit less bright and .015 caps will make the tone control effect less of the high end.