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CS0, CS9, CS8, CS7 at Wildwood

David.247

New member
Joined
Jan 22, 2015
Messages
23
Hi Just thought i'd jump into this discussion about CS9's. I went to my (not so) local guitar dealer and tried a true historic, a 2015 R9 and a CS9. I bought the CS9. Let me tell you why. The true Historic was out of my budget and I would find it hard to justify the extra £1700 for, lets face it, not much difference (plastic bits a few tool marks and hand sanded (big deal) the ONLY difference between the R9 and a CS9 is the neck joint everything else is the same. Am I gonna get upset about something that A) i can't see and B) has no significance in sound, tone, sustain or anything else that keeps the "purist" awake at night, no. The reason i did buy the CS9 over the R9 was i had a slighly better feel/connection for the guitar and the top was dirty lemon over a lemonburst and the figure/top/flame/wood grain appealed to me just a little bit more. Go back a few years and the fingerboards on some older R9's weren't one piece. but i'm sure the people with two piece finger boards enjoy their guitars just as much.
 

DanD

Active member
Joined
Apr 8, 2007
Messages
2,366
I started this thread because Wildwood doesn't appear to have sold one yet.

I've seen one CS at Wildwood sell.

Gibson missed the boat here completely. Total marketing failure on their part.

The idea behind the CS line was to create an LP that could be made on the regular production line along side the CS Custom LPs. Basically one production line making everything except the TH models. This adds flexibility and saves time in production.

Had I been calling the shots '14 Historics would have stopped production in '14. At the rate Gibson is putting out '14s it'll be 2016 and we'll still be seeing Historics with '14 serial numbers. Time to start dating by the pots again. What a f'd up mess they've made..:dang

Gibson should have had introductory pricing on these new CS guitars. They should've been priced lower than a '14 Historic but above a USA Standard. I'd have done a giveaway of 10 guitars to go along with this promotion.

This promotion would have had prominent LP players endorsed by Gibson (Joe B, Slash, Simo, Greg Martin, Johnny A or whoever else) testing 10 guitars all finished in VOS so as to conceal whether they were Historic spec or CS spec. These five players would test all ten guitars and pick their favorites and try to identify which of the 5 were long tenon and which 5 were short CS tenon guitars. The customers (us) try to pick a player who got the most right between the specs. They'd have to draw our contestant names lottery style based on player preference. The winners would get the guitar picked as best by their corresponding celebrity as each celeb guitarist would rank the guitars 1-10. If you chose the losing guitarist you'd get the highest pick he made that remains among the ten guitars.

I'm betting that none of the guitarists would be able to pick out correctly which 5 of the 10 were long tenon. This would have laid to rest any tonal concerns of long versus short tenon and been a fun exercise to boot.

This could have been a great 'Summer Jam' event in Nashville.

As it is marketing priced the CS line above the '14 long tenon models and then continued the production of the '14 model. You can't sell a perceived lower end product for more than its higher end counterpart. It's like Chevy pricing the Camaro above the 'Vette and wondering why they didn't sell any Camaros.

If Gibson Custom wanted the CS line to fail I think they've succeeded. :3zone
 

Sct13

Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2011
Messages
569
agreed, however the long tenon isn't about tone so much as it is about the the way they were put together in the 50's ....that the one and only reason I decided on a historic over a standard to begin with....both are great instruments....
 

redisburning

Les Paul Froum Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2015
Messages
256
Hi Just thought i'd jump into this discussion about CS9's. I went to my (not so) local guitar dealer and tried a true historic, a 2015 R9 and a CS9. I bought the CS9. Let me tell you why. The true Historic was out of my budget and I would find it hard to justify the extra £1700 for, lets face it, not much difference (plastic bits a few tool marks and hand sanded (big deal) the ONLY difference between the R9 and a CS9 is the neck joint everything else is the same. Am I gonna get upset about something that A) i can't see and B) has no significance in sound, tone, sustain or anything else that keeps the "purist" awake at night, no. The reason i did buy the CS9 over the R9 was i had a slighly better feel/connection for the guitar and the top was dirty lemon over a lemonburst and the figure/top/flame/wood grain appealed to me just a little bit more. Go back a few years and the fingerboards on some older R9's weren't one piece. but i'm sure the people with two piece finger boards enjoy their guitars just as much.

Im glad you like your guitar and all but I have seen NOTHING that would convince me to buy a CS line guitar.

The first time I heard one on a wildwood video I didnt even know what a "CS" guitar was (I've been out of the loop for a while, getting back in it) and I had tabbed out and it was actually the worst tone in a Wildwood demo I'd ever heard.

Maybe you got a killer one (possible), maybe youtube is a less than ideal outlet to hear the true nature of a guitar (definitely), but I sometimes have to buy sight unseen and if that were the only Gibson CS guitar I could afford I'd still be playing strats.
 

David.247

New member
Joined
Jan 22, 2015
Messages
23
Im glad you like your guitar and all but I have seen NOTHING that would convince me to buy a CS line guitar.

The first time I heard one on a wildwood video I didnt even know what a "CS" guitar was (I've been out of the loop for a while, getting back in it) and I had tabbed out and it was actually the worst tone in a Wildwood demo I'd ever heard.

Maybe you got a killer one (possible), maybe youtube is a less than ideal outlet to hear the true nature of a guitar (definitely), but I sometimes have to buy sight unseen and if that were the only Gibson CS guitar I could afford I'd still be playing strats.


Would you buy a new 2014 R9? Don't know how anybody can say the CS is a poor relation to the R9 when they are the same guitar, same wood, same pickups, same binding, tuners, dyes and hot hide glue, apart from one neck joint,. Really don't know why people are knocking them, could be the vid you watched that particular CS9 was a bad one but i bet some of the True Historics have good and bad ones as well, just like any range of guitars
 

redisburning

Les Paul Froum Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2015
Messages
256
Would you buy a new 2014 R9? Don't know how anybody can say the CS is a poor relation to the R9 when they are the same guitar, same wood, same pickups, same binding, tuners, dyes and hot hide glue, apart from one neck joint,. Really don't know why people are knocking them, could be the vid you watched that particular CS9 was a bad one but i bet some of the True Historics have good and bad ones as well, just like any range of guitars

yes, I would get a 2014 R9 over a CS9.

they lost me already. first impressions matter, and I dont see anything on the spec sheet to justify it.
 

David.247

New member
Joined
Jan 22, 2015
Messages
23
yes, I would get a 2014 R9 over a CS9.

they lost me already. first impressions matter, and I dont see anything on the spec sheet to justify it.

so just for the fact it a has a different neck joint but everything else is the same, if the CS9 played better and had a nicer top you would still prefer the R9?
 

renderit

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 19, 2009
Messages
10,406
I might not buy the R9 in that case, but I certainly would not buy the CS. If hypothetically you are asking if they were the last 2 guitars for sale in the world I would take the R9. Sorry. If it was only to play, could NEVER be sold etc. then maybe the CS. If East is East and West is West, and cranberries are stewed like applesauce they would taste more like prunes than rhubarb does.
 

DanD

Active member
Joined
Apr 8, 2007
Messages
2,366
agreed, however the long tenon isn't about tone so much as it is about the the way they were put together in the 50's ....that the one and only reason I decided on a historic over a standard to begin with....both are great instruments....

This is true. If Gibson wanted the THR series to be the True Historic they'd have stopped '14 production. After the '14s sold out the used prices on Historics would go up. This is good for the manufacturer as it creates a perceived investment return on their product and higher used prices create initiative to buy new product over used. It would have also placed the THR line head and shoulders above the rest of the CS line. Die hard fans who wanted the 'proper' vintage spec would now pony up or shut up when buying a new guitar.

I think this approach would've really brought the Gibson marque up a couple of notches into custom builder territory. Which in my mind is really where a Custom Shop should be. Gibson and their wishy washy decision making really killed what could have been huge leap forward in exclusivity among brands.

At this point the CS series would start to be appealing to many as they'd be buying new over used at about the same cost. All this takes time, it'd probably take a couple model years before the CS line took hold. But that's the investment Gibson would have had to made to use one assembly line for the bulk of their Custom Shop guitars. :peace2
 
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Sct13

Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2011
Messages
569
Right, saw right through thier stratagies to insert the Historic into the USA line....and not really tell anyone.....just discontinue the the long tenon alltogether, nice and quietlike....I saw this as something the auto companies pull....which they do all the time...."make it Look like a _insert name here_ ....but is really a - what we want you to belive it is -" its smoke and mirrors and low and behold....the guitar players are smarter than you gave us credit for....

So that being said and hopefully behind us....I did play a few of these CS9's and they are very nice, there is no audible or playability issues with them at all....they have a nice finish, and the same kind of attention to detail, The finish is different than the R series of early 14 however.

I dont think they will make a "desireable" collectors piece....like the 2012 layered boards...(sic)
 

MS 57

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Oct 19, 2008
Messages
643
Bullshit.
There is no structural or tonal advantage to the vintage tenon over the same kind of tenon that is a wee bit shorter.
I don't think Gibson will have any trouble selling them.

.............. 5 months later Wildwood have 22 for sale : Thats what I call "trouble selling"
For me it was a no brainer to forsee trouble for Gibson retailers. Strange modification coupled with very high price = Trouble selling.
Luckily the poor sales will force Gibson to make changes both in the USA and the Custom line up.
 

redisburning

Les Paul Froum Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2015
Messages
256
so just for the fact it a has a different neck joint but everything else is the same, if the CS9 played better and had a nicer top you would still prefer the R9?

see

I might not buy the R9 in that case, but I certainly would not buy the CS. If hypothetically you are asking if they were the last 2 guitars for sale in the world I would take the R9. Sorry. If it was only to play, could NEVER be sold etc. then maybe the CS. If East is East and West is West, and cranberries are stewed like applesauce they would taste more like prunes than rhubarb does.

listen there are PRS guitars which play "better" (read: necks most people prefer) and have way wilder tops than any Gibson I've ever played yet here I am on the LPF and I own 2 Gibsons and 0 PRS guitars.

Recall my post on the matter, where I mentioned buying sight unseen. CS series guitars arent at a store I can get to so it's a moot point; I would have to order online, and as such how could I judge playability? I have to assume the Gibson custom shop does an OK job on that. Maybe that sounds ridiculous but I just bought LP number 2 off the internet, and I bought my last Strat off the internet. A lot of people are in that position now. So I would buy off R9 specs vs CS9 specs and I'd choose the R9 and hope I got a good guitar.

And I like most tops just about the same; I own a "plaintop" R8 and love the grain and inclusions and subtle flame in the very middle and the horns. As long as it's not in 10 top / ludicrous territory it really doesnt make much difference.
 

renderit

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Joined
Jan 19, 2009
Messages
10,406
see



listen there are PRS guitars which play "better" (read: necks most people prefer) and have way wilder tops than any Gibson I've ever played yet here I am on the LPF and I own 2 Gibsons and 0 PRS guitars.

Recall my post on the matter, where I mentioned buying sight unseen. CS series guitars arent at a store I can get to so it's a moot point; I would have to order online, and as such how could I judge playability? I have to assume the Gibson custom shop does an OK job on that. Maybe that sounds ridiculous but I just bought LP number 2 off the internet, and I bought my last Strat off the internet. A lot of people are in that position now. So I would buy off R9 specs vs CS9 specs and I'd choose the R9 and hope I got a good guitar.

And I like most tops just about the same; I own a "plaintop" R8 and love the grain and inclusions and subtle flame in the very middle and the horns. As long as it's not in 10 top / ludicrous territory it really doesnt make much difference.

Unfortunately buying off the internet is a fact of life anymore. Unless you are lucky enough to live next to one of the huge carriers you are not going to get to play one without some risk. That is where you need to develop some contacts at the stores that you can question about the various fiddles, have them play it, give you the play by play and trust it. When you get it then you can see if it matches what he or she said. I have a guy I really trust at Wildwood named Lance, of course Mark at Mark's Guitar Loft, a person at Sweetwater (which just got promoted I think because he's no longer my rep), a person at Music Zoo, etc. Have them give you a run down on a specific guitar, then if you buy and don't agree then send it back and get a different contact. But read return policies and UNDERSTAND them. I have had contacts at some places actually tell me a guitar was so-so and that they would pass on it. I have come to trust their opinions and I have not been disappointed yet. They realize that a bad sale today could mean no repeat sales in the future. I have bought several LP's from Guitar Center. Each of those I played personally before buying...
 

drog1602

Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2015
Messages
98
I don't have an issue with the CS LP Standard, I think it offers someone a well made LP, certainly better than the Gibson USA offerings. I do think they should have been priced the same as the LP Custom.

I have played a couple of them and they are fine playing guitars.

My .02 cents
 

GotTheSilver

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 14, 2007
Messages
2,433
Hi Just thought i'd jump into this discussion about CS9's. I went to my (not so) local guitar dealer and tried a true historic, a 2015 R9 and a CS9. I bought the CS9. Let me tell you why. The true Historic was out of my budget and I would find it hard to justify the extra £1700 for, lets face it, not much difference (plastic bits a few tool marks and hand sanded (big deal) the ONLY difference between the R9 and a CS9 is the neck joint everything else is the same. Am I gonna get upset about something that A) i can't see and B) has no significance in sound, tone, sustain or anything else that keeps the "purist" awake at night, no. The reason i did buy the CS9 over the R9 was i had a slighly better feel/connection for the guitar and the top was dirty lemon over a lemonburst and the figure/top/flame/wood grain appealed to me just a little bit more. Go back a few years and the fingerboards on some older R9's weren't one piece. but i'm sure the people with two piece finger boards enjoy their guitars just as much.

Congrats on the new guitar! How about some pics?

I am sure the different neck tenon has absolutely zero effect on the tone!!!!
 

DANELECTRO

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Joined
Feb 24, 2003
Messages
6,247
Gibson pulled the rug out from under us when they replaced the Historic line with the CS line. The CS line is not about cost savings or offering a more affordable Custom Shop Les Paul to us. Did anybody see the prices go down? Nope. A 2015 CS9 is the exact same guitar as a 2014 R9 except that it no longer has the vintage-correct long tenon nor a vintage-correct X-XXXX format serial number.

Does the the long tenon vs the short tenon make a tonal difference? Probably not enough that the average customer can detect if any at all. Is the short tenon lower in cost? Shortening a neck blank by 1" can't be more than a buck or two in material cost savings. The overall cost might even be higher because now they have two different setups and processes for making necks in the factory rather than one as they did before. Do I want a CS model? Hell no! Its wrong! And its not like its one of those little details that lament about because they haven't gotten it quite right yet. They had it right and they took it away.

Gibson knows that their customers who are interested in a reissue want a Les Paul with vintage-accurate features and the CS/TH product line-up is nothing more than a marketing trick to encourage us to spend an extra two grand or so to get the more accurate TH model.

So why does a 2015 TH cost two grand more than a 2014 Historic? Well they did invest a significant amount of cash into researching materials and retooling the plastic parts and the pickup covers in order to make them more accurate for which I applaud them, however IMO that cost should have simply been absorbed as a necessary investment to improve the product and keep customer's coming back for more. When an automaker redesigns the next model year of a car they invest hundreds of millions of dollars into research, design, and retooling the manufacturing line. Does that mean that a 2015 Honda Accord costs $24,000 and a redesigned 2016 Accord costs $32,000? No, but if they want people to keep buying Honda Accords they know they have to invest some money every so often to freshen up the design. Gibson's approach is; "Let's remove the air conditioner and sell it as the Accord CS at the same price as before, then we'll charge them an extra $8000 if they want the Accord TH with an air conditioner. :salude

Gibson already has the USA line-up for the customer who wants a more affordable guitar. The Historic lineup should represent the "Golden Year" Les Pauls. From 1958 through 1960 there was just one model of the Les Paul Standard available from Gibson. Sure we would like to have a few variations that represent the evolution the neck size across those models years (R8, R9, R0), but I think when it comes to the Custom Shop Les Paul Reissue, Gibson should cut the BS and just get back to trying the make the most accurate Les Paul that they possibly can.
 
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renderit

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 19, 2009
Messages
10,406
Gibson pulled the rug out from under us when they replaced the Historic line with the CS line. The CS line is not about cost savings or offering a more affordable Custom Shop Les Paul to us. Did anybody see the prices go down? Nope. A 2015 CS9 is the exact same guitar as a 2014 R9 except that it no longer has the vintage-correct long tenon nor a vintage-correct X-XXXX format serial number.

Does the the long tenon vs the short tenon make a tonal difference? Probably not enough that the average customer can detect if any at all. Is the short tenon lower in cost? Shortening a neck blank by 1" can't be more than a buck or two in material cost savings. The overall cost might even be higher because now they have two different setups and processes for making necks in the factory rather than one as they did before. Do I want a CS model? Hell no! Its wrong! And its not like its one of those little details that lament about because they haven't gotten it quite right yet. They had it right and they took it away.

Gibson knows that their customers who are interested in a reissue want a Les Paul with vintage-accurate features and the CS/TH product line-up is nothing more than a marketing trick to encourage us to spend an extra two grand or so to get the more accurate TH model.

So why does a 2015 TH cost two grand more than a 2014 Historic? Well they did invest a significant amount of cash into researching materials and retooling the plastic parts and the pickup covers in order to make them more accurate for which I applaud them, however IMO that cost should have simply been absorbed as a necessary investment to improve the product and keep customer's coming back for more. When an automaker redesigns the next model year of a car they invest hundreds of millions of dollars into research, design, and retooling the manufacturing line. Does that mean that a 2015 Honda Accord costs $24,000 and a redesigned 2016 Accord costs $32,000? No, but if they want people to keep buying Honda Accords they know they have to invest some money every so often to freshen up the design. Gibson's approach is; "Let's remove the air conditioner and sell it as the Accord CS at the same price as before, then we'll charge them an extra $8000 if they want the Accord TH with an air conditioner. :salude

Gibson already has the USA line-up for the customer who wants a more affordable guitar. The Historic lineup should represent the "Golden Year" Les Pauls. From 1958 through 1960 there was just one model of the Les Paul Standard available from Gibson. Sure we would like to have a few variations that represent the evolution the neck size across those models years (R8, R9, R0), but I think when it comes to the Custom Shop Les Paul Reissue, Gibson should cut the BS and just get back to trying the make the most accurate Les Paul that they possibly can.

While I agree with a lot of what you are saying here, let me nit-pick some points. In our never ending quest to prove our points we offer exaggerations and suppositions to prove our point. It's human nature. That said, I love you man, but I gotta rebut.

You have no right to decide what any company should or should not absorb, but you do have the right to your opinion. There is something called economy of scale. That states if I have a thousand of an item for sale a $5 change in price still pays me $5,000 for the change. For 100 items the recovery at $5 is $500. At today's LOADED RATES the engineer can only spend a couple of hours coming up with that fix. That don't work dude! Cars typically go up a few thousand every year. Multiply that by the 100,000 rate of a SMALL RUN of cars and you should have a little light come on in your attic space. Now, the change not only is a cost in the engineering department, but also supply ordering, logistics, manufacture, etc. That change costs thousands of dollars down wind. And in your example, I bought several Honda Accords. They go up EVERY YEAR in the thousands! And it also ignores the fact that a $300 change on a $30K item is a 1% change where a $300 change on a $4K item is a 7.5% change. HUGE difference in what the consumer sees as the price change.

The neck length savings you pulled out of your nether regions, didn't you? Come on! Admit it! You have NO IDEA how much it saves. Or costs! But you DID guess right that it cost them in the retooling. I agree with your thought though. They are taking away something and charging more and it sucks!

Now, let's get to the crux of why I would post this angry off-kilter tirade. Your last paragraph. The premise is spotless. But you say the golden years and then '58 through '60. The silliest amongst us KNOW the best years were '52-'57. The rest were chaff after the formula was figured out and they could no longer build good P90's because they lost the recipe for converting unicorn bile into tone juice and shortly after, unicorn urine into gold paint!

 
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Mats A

Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2008
Messages
795
I believe if it´s not selling it´s because of the price. The long or short neck tenon is just for those who think how the guitar is made and looks is more imprtant than how it plays and sounds. I do believe people that spend more money on a guitar often also know more about guitars. Still the neck tenon long or short won´t show if you take a picture the guitar.
 

30yearnovice

New member
Joined
Mar 15, 2016
Messages
2
My BRAND NEW 2015 CS9 is arriving Wednesday. Since the last post to this thread, it has become apparent that those who questioned Gibson's marketing strategy were correct, as the CS for 2016 now appears to be the Standard Historic and went up another 300 bucks in price. Regardless, here's why I bought a CS9: The cheapest used 2013 or 2014 R9 is at least $4500-$5000. New CS9s were selling for $6,200, although apparently slowly. I got the last one at Sam Ash for $3999. I am buying the guitar to play. Not because it's a historic recreation, but because it's a quality Les Paul that weighs under nine pounds without weight relief.

I am sure some folks here will tell be I should have bought a used R9. Well I have 45 days to decide. But it it feels as great as I think it will, I'm keeping it. I don't really care about the tendon.
 

DanD

Active member
Joined
Apr 8, 2007
Messages
2,366
I think you did just fine. The price you paid should have been Gibson's "inrtoductory" pricing for the CS 9.

Wildwood couldn't move any stock at the original $6299 pricing. After lowering the price to $3399 for CS 7 and CS 8 models and $3999 for CS 9 and CS 0 models they have sold all but a few.

They actually went from an inventory of ~30 to about 8 in a matter of a month.

Gibson blew it by being to greedy on the original pricing of the CS line. :peace2
 
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