How does changing studs, tailpiece, etc improve a Les Paul?

[rockabilly69]

D'Mule,

You might be right about the transfer issue, though in my case, I switched to a lightweight tailpiece, which may have been what was responsible for the improvement. Remember mine was a Standard with the heavy tailpiece. Isn't that also the case with the PG Fadeds? As for the locking part of the tailpiece, it's great that the tailpiece stays on during string changes.

Dan

 

[Pvee]

I think it is great that all of you guys are hearing improvements in the tone of your guitars after replacing the tailpiece and studs to achieve a tighter fit. I'm sure these are very high quality components.

That said, I don't believe the fit can be the reason. Regardless of how tightly these replacement components fit, you have no evidence that the "fit" of the Gibson components is insufficient to transfer vibration to the wood. The string tension ensures that the tailpiece is firmly seated against the studs, and the studs are firmly seated in the anchors. There is simply no vibration between these components to allow for loss of transfer.:ganz

On the other hand, if you have placed motion sensors on the Gibson tailpiece and studs and have detected some incoherent vibrations, or have performed high speed photography that can detect tailpiece vibrations independent of the studs, please let me know.:laugh2:

I am with you. If you hear a positive change, that's good..

I have played guiter for 50 years and had many guitars and do tech work for fun and profit sometimes !!

There are so many variables when you change the parts that if you can't exactly control the environment before and after the results may vary ever so slightly.

Such as did I change strings at the same time and did the bridge height end up as exactly where it was before, and is the string angle over the bridge exactly the same as it was before.

When I do setup work on acoustic guitars I record the before and after sound and most of the time I can hear little or no difference but the owner almost always says it sounds so much better.

That's good, for him and me..!!!

 

[PaulSG]

...That said, I don't believe the fit can be the reason. Regardless of how tightly these replacement components fit, you have no evidence that the "fit" of the Gibson components is insufficient to transfer vibration to the wood. The string tension ensures that the tailpiece is firmly seated against the studs, and the studs are firmly seated in the anchors. There is simply no vibration between these components to allow for loss of transfer...

I disagree 100%

I can feel the difference in my stomach. You can easily feel the body resonating with each note. That resonation is much more pronounced after making these simple changes. That's enough evidence for me.

IMHO, the TP makes the difference. Going from the crap zinc or whatever the stock production TP is made of to an Aluminum one makes a big difference.

There is a reason a Historic sounds better unplugged then a production model does, and it's not just a long tenon.

 

[Pvee]

I disagree 100%

I can feel the difference in my stomach. You can easily feel the body resonating with each note. That resonation is much more pronounced after making these simple changes. That's enough evidence for me.

IMHO, the TP makes the difference. Going from the crap zinc or whatever the stock production TP is made of to an Aluminum one makes a big difference.

There is a reason a Historic sounds better unplugged then a production model does, and it's not just a long tenon.

Do you think that is because the aluminum piece is softer or harder??

 

[les strat]

Anyone with decent eyesight looking at the stock topwrap pics should be able to see that the tailpiece is severely angling and not making nearly the contact that a tighter fitting tailpiece would make.

 

[Radagacuca]

There is a reason a Historic sounds better unplugged then a production model does, and it's not just a long tenon.

please don´t be offended, but what exactly is it that makes historics sound "better" unplugged than production models?
imho a generalisation like that is a little off.
i have/had historic les pauls that sounded very dark and mellow unplugged, others very bright and wirily and a lot in between. the same goes for production les pauls. imho it comes down to a certain guitar.
the unplugged sound (as the amplified) in my experience varies too much to make a point like that.... ymmv

ed king said that a good sounding burst sounds cheap unplugged. so is the "better" you describe the same as the "cheap" ed describes? would that mean a truly "good" sounding (still unplugged...) historic is a dog when plugged in? while a cheap sounding production model (or to be evil, even a cheap sounding chinese clone) pushes you into the tonal heaven of a good burst? does that mean "cheap = better" in general?

guess it´s not that easy...

peace

 

[PaulSG]

please don´t be offended, but what exactly is it that makes historics sound "better" unplugged than production models?
imho a generalisation like that is a little off.
i have/had historic les pauls that sounded very dark and mellow unplugged, others very bright and wirily and a lot in between. the same goes for production les pauls. imho it comes down to a certain guitar.
the unplugged sound (as the amplified) in my experience varies too much to make a point like that.... ymmv

ed king said that a good sounding burst sounds cheap unplugged. so is the "better" you describe the same as the "cheap" ed describes? would that mean a truly "good" sounding (still unplugged...) historic is a dog when plugged in? while a cheap sounding production model (or to be evil, even a cheap sounding chinese clone) pushes you into the tonal heaven of a good burst? does that mean "cheap = better" in general?

guess it´s not that easy...

peace

No offense taken ever.

Everyone's idea of good tone is different and everyone hears things differently.

No, I do not agree with Ed King. How can a cheap sounding guitar sound good? I never judge a guitars sound plugged in. If it sounds cheap unplugged, it gets put back on the "shelf."

I agree with you some Historics are pieces of shit and dont sound like I want them to. But when I find any Gibson that sounds good to me stock, it always sounds better with these simple upgrades. Obviously if it's a Historic that sounds good stock, it doesn't need any upgrades.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. My first post (#2) of this thread simply answered the OP question. Obviously a few members don't hold my opinion and that's fine. This forum would be pretty boring if we all thought the same. I'm very thankful this isn't a forum of sheep. Just always remember opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.

:salude

 

[Minibucker]

Anyone with decent eyesight looking at the stock topwrap pics should be able to see that the tailpiece is severely angling and not making nearly the contact that a tighter fitting tailpiece would make.

At the same time, you could look at a tilted/angled tailpiece as being better for string vibration because its contact with the tailpiece studs are more like a fulcrum point than a wider contact area....hence helping not to dampen vibrations of the string itself. Like when mounting hi-fi speakers on small cones so the speaker itself doesn't lose resonance through contact with it's mounting surface. Then again, I think that the vast majority of string vibration is transferred through the bridge and nut...and the tuners, functionally, are doing the same thing as the tailpiece...anchoring the string over the points where vibration is transferred. Why do some think that the heavier Grover tuners are better for tone, yet not the heavier tailpiece? Some say the alum. TP makes things arier/woodier sounding, like using lighter wood on a guitar, and the heavier TP is more focused. Who really knows. Maybe the idea system would be no tailpiece and having the strings actually anchored through the body, like with Strats/Teles...or old Fling V's.

 

[les strat]

At the same time, you could look at a tilted/angled tailpiece as being better for string vibration because its contact with the tailpiece studs are more like a fulcrum point than a wider contact area....hence helping not to dampen vibrations of the string itself. Like when mounting hi-fi speakers on small cones so the speaker itself doesn't lose resonance through contact with it's mounting surface. Then again, I think that the vast majority of string vibration is transferred through the bridge and nut...and the tuners, functionally, are doing the same thing as the tailpiece...anchoring the string over the points where vibration is transferred. Why do some think that the heavier Grover tuners are better for tone, yet not the heavier tailpiece? Some say the alum. TP makes things arier/woodier sounding, like using lighter wood on a guitar, and the heavier TP is more focused. Who really knows. Maybe the idea system would be no tailpiece and having the strings actually anchored through the body, like with Strats/Teles...or old Fling V's.

I wouldn't call it dampening string vibrations, but rather getting it to the wood better with a better coupling between the two. The aluminum effects certain frequencies before it is conducted to the body my the studs.

I don't topwrap, so it is not a big deal to me, but for those who do, I see where tilt is an issue. I agree with you that the majority of transference is at the bridge and nut. Grovers do make a difference beyond the nut, and can bet the steel studs will as well. How much? We'll see. I have ordered a couple sets of Pigtail Historic studs to just see if there is any difference and just as a better metal as used in the original bursts.

 

[D'Mule]

I disagree 100%

I can feel the difference in my stomach. You can easily feel the body resonating with each note. That resonation is much more pronounced after making these simple changes. That's enough evidence for me.

IMHO, the TP makes the difference. Going from the crap zinc or whatever the stock production TP is made of to an Aluminum one makes a big difference.

There is a reason a Historic sounds better unplugged then a production model does, and it's not just a long tenon.

I'm not doubting you think it is better to have an after-market tailpiece/studs/bridge/etc. Composition of the tailpiece probably has a lot to do with it as you say.

I take issue with those that claim the reason for the improvement has to do with the "fit" of these components. Even though I agree the tighter fit looks better, there is no evidence that this affects the tone. Nor does it make any sense, as there is no vibration between the historic tailpiece and studs to allow for a loss of energy or failure to transmit energy to the body.

As Minibucker is describing, the slightly tipped tailpiece of a top-wrapped historic allows for all of the string tension to be focused on a smaller area of stud surface--this means even greater pressure per square inch of contact surface!

I am an advocate of people communicating to others that the changes they've made to their guitars were an improvement (or not).:applaude

What I don't accept is simple speculation or unproven theory passed off as fact.

 

[Minibucker]

I wonder what a ceramic or glass tailpiece would sound like.

 

[John B.]

I've done it lots of times, it makes a difference - especially switching to an aluminum tailpiece can give more airy highs. Now if you use a bunch of footpedals or crank your amp to eleven it may get lost in translation. But if your looking for sweet bell-like tones like Peter Green, as I am, it helps.

 

[Albion]

Seems to be a rather common mod to Les Pauls is changing the studs, tailpiece and bridge. What improvements does this make? Does it change the sound, the feel?

I have changed the TP, Studs, Bushings to Pigtail on my R0. The body vibrates a smidge more. Chimes acoustically a smidge more. Not a drastic thing IME. I am trying to order a 50's ABR-1 from Steve or BCR today. That will be my final tweak, already did the PU's, caps, pots, nut, plek.

Cheers,

Eric

 

[Pvee]

SInce the string rest on the bridge saddle at one end and at which ever fret you push it down behind at the other and the magnetic pickups only pickup metallic string vibrations, I doubt if it make much difference to my amplified sound.

Different pickups do, strings, clean saddle and nut slots, pick selection, right hand technique etc do make a difference.


But, if your happy, i'm happy...lol

 

[buyusfear]

the magnetic pickups only pickup metallic string vibrations, I doubt if it make much difference to my amplified sound.

Different pickups do, strings, clean saddle and nut slots, pick selection, right hand technique etc do make a difference.


But, if your happy, i'm happy...lol

So then mahogany necks, maple necks, alder bodies, mahogany bodies, all that makes no difference what so ever???

As TW59 would say....

:hmm

 

[Pvee]

So then mahogany necks, maple necks, alder bodies, mahogany bodies, all that makes no difference what so ever???

As TW59 would say....

:hmm

I supose it could make a little difference to your amplified tone.!!

But in my 50 years of playing and probably 150 store bought guitars and 20 plus home made ones, I have yet to ever see a study in a controlled environment where the hardware was changed between different like type guitars of different woods and then adjusted to precise specs and played the exact same way to prove it.

I have changed or repaired a lot of parts that made a difference but many of the guitars I setup and repair for other players were just plain setup bad, in bad shape, loose parts, nut slots and saddle slots cut wrong , bad or incorrect pots, bad choice of strings etc.
I am really surprised at some of the stuff people bring me to repair.

And some of those inexpensive guitars play and sound great after some repair and setup work. Some are just junk. It's a luck of the draw thing with some models.

I fixed up a garage sale Ibanez for a guy last week that bought it for his child that's learning. After replacing the volume pot and a tone cap and fixing the bridge saddles, new strings, and tightening everything up and doing a setup on it he was just blown away by how good it played and sounded. I think it was a 150.00 guitar when new. Those inexpensive pickups did really sound good in that one. That's not always the case..

 

[Radagacuca]

So then mahogany necks, maple necks, alder bodies, mahogany bodies, all that makes no difference what so ever???
:hmm

in my understanding most of "tone" comes from the resonating strings in the area between saddle/nut and bridge and how they resonate with the different woods (or whatever material) underneath them. for sure things you do that directly touch strings within this area will have a lot of effect on tone. think different pick material, style and the likes.
when this resonating against each other is not perfect things like dead spots may accur.

now for a little poor mans testing...
grab yourself a caliper and strongly grap a string between the bridge and the tailpiece. but make sure you don´t bend or wiggle with it too much. i think that should have an effect on tone, right? we´re dampening and/or putting lots of additional mass directly to the string here.
then pick that string (amplified or not doesn´t matter). then repeat that same picking without the caliper.
i couldn´t tell a difference in tone or sustain cutoff worth mentioning here. as less as i could when changing the tp between heavy and light etc..

sometimes the saying comes true... believe will move mountains... guess i am not a believer.... or plain deaf :rofl

peace

 

[PaulSG]

...What I don't accept is simple speculation or unproven theory passed off as fact.

When did I ever pass anything off as absolute fact? The OP asked a question, I answered him. I can only answer with my opinion. I never stated it was flat out fact and everyone else's opinion is bullshit.

Just because you dont notice a big difference in tone with these changes doesn't mean others don't.

And BTW, I get the same results with a GIBSON ABR-1 and Historic Spec TP. It's not just "aftermarket" parts.

 

[D'Mule]

Paul, I never stated you were passing off opinion as fact. I quoted you only because you first quoted me in order to "disagree 100%".

The question was simply "How does changing the studs, tailpiece, etc improve a Les Paul?" and one answer given was
"Tighter parts translates into better string sustain" as if this were fact. Is it?

 

[Pearly Grapes]

IMHO *loose* parts detract from sustain & additional harmonics.
So I'd also have to say tighter parts do contribute to more sustain. Otherwise sloppy fitting parts with little part-to-part contact wouldn't hurt sustain. IMHO

PG