Valuable information to consider when evaluating the authenticity of a vintage burst

[Zapper]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Zapper,
Also on your pic, the channel for the pickup wires in the cavity has the opening in the center of the flat cavity wall. Compare with the confirmed burst, here the channel is located a bit more to the neck volume pot.
I'm pretty sure it always was done the same way. Can some of you knowledgeable ppl confirm this?

Yes, I see what you mean sweiger... Does anyone know how they were machined? Was there any scope for variation? By different employees for instance?

 

[Zapper]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Gibson made approximately 5,000 solid body guitars in 1960, 600 of which were 'Bursts.
While they were made with great care and craftsmanship and despite individual quirks among them, classic era Gibsons are not at all hand-made instruments in the least - with very few exceptions.

Sorry brandtkronholm I meant 'made by humans' really, ie with deviations in the machining depending on who was doing it and whether it was a Friday afternoon or not..! Hence the clear variations in the 'chew' and possibly the routing too...

 

[marshall1987]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Morning all! Thanks very much everyone for your comments and observations yesterday. Certainly some food for thought there..! I tried to post a response last night but for some reason the moderator moderated it and it has disappeared into the ether lol..!

I’m pretty certain that the guitar is a genuine 1960 LP as I bought from a trustworthy friend of a friend (and prolific collector) who in turn inherited it from his uncle (a pro-musician who had owned the guitar since the 1970s). I’m therefore pretty confident about the serial number and Les Paul decal, and if it has been renecked then they’ve done an amazing job on it! It’s certainly had a recent refret though, hence the lighter neck binding. The neck definitely plays and feels like a thinner ‘60s neck so if it has been replaced at least it’s with the right one!


I am however slightly baffled/concerned by JJs observation about the ‘chew’ in the control cavity. I’ve been looking at some other photos of this cavity and noticed that the depth of the chew seems to vary quite significantly from guitar to guitar (which I suppose one would expect from hand-crafted instruments). Although mine doesn’t have the same pronounced dent as in JJs pic, on closer inspection the rout on mine is not 100% circular, ie the chew is far less pronounced. See left hand side of the pic below. Does that sound/look reasonable?


Finally, it would be good to take it to an experienced restorer/expert for their opinion. Can anyone recommend someone in/around London?
Cheers
Ian

No intention to disparage your evidence of provanance, but IMO the claimed chain of custody of this guitar does not inspire confidence. There's a lot of room for unknowns with the guitar's prior ownership. :dang

 

[brandtkronholm]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Sorry brandtkronholm I meant 'made by humans' really, ie with deviations in the machining depending on who was doing it and whether it was a Friday afternoon or not..! Hence the clear variations in the 'chew' and possibly the routing too...

:salude

 

[Zapper]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Indeed Marshall... which is why I've asked the previous owner to dig out some old pics of his uncle playing it in the '70s (which maybe I should have requested BEFORE buying the guitar LOL..!). Watch this space! :hee

 

[S. Weiger]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Indeed Marshall... which is why I've asked the previous owner to dig out some old pics of his uncle playing it in the '70s (which maybe I should have requested BEFORE buying the guitar LOL..!). Watch this space! :hee

Not trying to be a party pooper, but there actually were some (for the period) good fugazi bursts made in the '70s AFAIK.

 

[Rich R]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Zapper, Here's a couple pics for comparison. I enhanced the lightning on your pics.
Also, the "M" in "Model" is a bit less 'slender' on your decal.

The pics are pretty hard to argue with...To my eyes, the chew mark is not the only issue with the cavity, either

 

[Jumping@Shadows]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

The pics are pretty hard to argue with...To my eyes, the chew mark is not the only issue with the cavity, either

I concur- there’s stuff going on in the cavity which could not result from late ‘50s Gibson building methods, and that coupled with the suspect finish and incorrect headstock shape makes this fall at the first hurdle imho.

 

[Zapper]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

The pics are pretty hard to argue with...To my eyes, the chew mark is not the only issue with the cavity, either

Tell me about it Rich..! What other issues have you got (apart from the routing, which I'm looking into..)?

 

[Rich R]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Here's a cavity pic of 8 6728
http://images.lilypix.com/albums/userpics/10145/normal_IMG_0522.jpg

Note how similar it is to the one that Sweiger posted: the routes, the distances between the structural elements, etc. In other words, while there are of course tiny "differences", it's obvious that they are essentially the same, made the same way, in the same place, etc. The cavity on your guitar just doesn't look like that.

 

[Zapper]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

I concur- there’s stuff going on in the cavity which could not result from late ‘50s Gibson building methods, and that coupled with the suspect finish and incorrect headstock shape makes this fall at the first hurdle imho.

In what way do you think the finish is 'suspect'? How can you possibly artificially age cellulose like that? I've got a couple of '70s Standards nowhere near as aged..

And to my (albeit untrained..) eyes, the headstock looks identical to the one in the Emerald City authentication video, ie with the left hand horn being slightly sharper than the right.. Or am I missing something?

Here's a close up of mine... Incidentally sweiger, still can't see any difference in the LP decal to that on the Emerald City video.. Look identical to me!

 

[Zapper]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Here's a cavity pic of 8 6728
http://images.lilypix.com/albums/userpics/10145/normal_IMG_0522.jpg

Note how similar it is to the one that Sweiger posted: the routes, the distances between the structural elements, etc. In other words, while there are of course tiny "differences", it's obvious that they are essentially the same, made the same way, in the same place, etc. The cavity on your guitar just doesn't look like that.

Thanks Rich. Don't forget that the '58 in your pic was made TWO years before mine so I'd be surprised if they were identical anyway.. Interesting though that the 'chew' is much less pronounced in that pic, ie it's similar to mine.. Hooray!! :hank

 

[Zapper]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Boy are we a sad bunch of trainspotters LOL...! Have a great evening, and stay safe! :hank

 

[S. Weiger]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Zapper, if you can't see the small anomalies we are pointing out to you, I recommend you take the guitar to a reputable dealer for verification.
I should think ATB guitars in Cheltenham would qualify, as I mentioned earlier. if he feels uncertain with the task, he will tell you up front before you make the trip.
Great evening to you too :dude:

 

[TM1]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

BTW, the gold script “Les Paul Model” is Not a decal. It was Silkscreened on probably right before the guitar was “hardwarded”.
Maybe Kim from “Historic Makeovers” could tell us exactly when in the production process it was done, but was never a Decal back then. I think they did use a decal in the 70’s when Norlin was trying to speed up the whole process.. I do believe that the regular production guitars(Gibson USA) use decal...

 

[Zapper]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Zapper, if you can't see the small anomalies we are pointing out to you, I recommend you take the guitar to a reputable dealer for verification.
I should think ATB guitars in Cheltenham would qualify, as I mentioned earlier. if he feels uncertain with the task, he will tell you up front before you make the trip.
Great evening to you too :dude:

Thanks sweiger, I can certainly see what you mean about the 'chew', which I'm looking into, but I really can't see these apparent discrepancies in things like the Les Paul logo and headstock moustache.... Like you said though, I am certainly going to find someone with a lot of experience in these guitars for their opinion. Unfortunately Cheltenham is about 150 miles away from me but I've heard about a guy in Kent with 40 years experience in restoring Bursts so sounds like he's my man!

And TM1, thanks for the heads-up about 'decals'... Something else I've learnt today!

 

[Tom Wittrock]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

One more cavity shot for reference …. my late 1960 Burst, # 0 7448.
[note the rarely used Astron caps]

The chew mark, above the bridge pickup volume control is quite evident.

 

[DonnRowe]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

The "P"(aul) on the silk screen(it is not a decal) is the most obvious difference. :hmm

 

[Zapper]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Tom, thanks for the new cavity pic. The 'chew' is the deepest I've seen yet... Must have been made on a Friday afternoon..! Interesting that the wiring loom emerges from a hole in the flat surface just above the neck p/u volume pot (ie like mine...). Hope that answers your question sweiger..!! :spabout Just goes to show how much individual guitars differed in the manufacturing process in those days.... :hank

 

[Zapper]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

The "P"(aul) on the silk screen(it is not a decal) is the most obvious difference. :hmm

Thanks DonnRowe, but can't see how the P is so obviously different..! Don't forget that NO silk screen logos will be 101% exactly the same due to the nature of the process. If they were decals though it would be understandable as they SHOULD all be the same...