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Valuable information to consider when evaluating the authenticity of a vintage burst

Zapper

Active member
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
308
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Afternoon all! DING DING... ROUND 12...! Thanks everyone for your comments, which I'll try to respond to as best I can...

Jumpingshadows... thanks for the new pic. Haven't a clue what you're talking about re the control cavity LOL..! No-one else has mentioned "angled secondary routes" or "definitive V shapes" at noon so I'll wait for a specialist to examine it and defer to their judgement. The 'chew' however does concern me. And I see what you mean about the depth of routing in the pickup cavity, but I've seen others at different depths so I'm relaxed about that. Regarding the headstock, as mentioned previously I've compared mine in the flesh to the one in the Emerald City video at some length and am happy with it.

2002standardmat. I know the previous owner's dealer very well, and he's known that owner (a profilic collector) and the guitar for many years. In spite of trusting their assurances, I bought the Iwanade Burst book and compared as many guitars/traits as I could. At the end of the day though, I didn't pay silly money for it so if it does turn out to be a (very good!) replica, I'll still have a great playing/looking/sounding guitar! Will just have to put a few grand down to experience (or recover it through the Courts...).

Latestarter, thanks for the pic. The difference in the 'b' seems to be due to a slight dig/blemish in the lacquer. Not sure about the 's'. Very relieved to see your discoloured logo though - the first one I've seen that's the same colour as mine!

Ourmaninthenorth. Yes, am going to try to track down Gary W, who apparently now lives in Kent England and who I last saw about 30 years ago when I sold him a Strat! He showed me a couple of mint '59s at the time and blew me away! Nice guy too!

El Gringo, thanks for the heads-up about the pickups & electrics. If it does turn out to be a replica I'll have a look at them (and some Wizz PAFs which are also apparently very good). Would be no point buying real PAFs obviously!

Akstrat & HarryGT, yep will be taking it to some specialists to examine (which I need for insurance anyway) and will report back when a conclusion is reached. And you can all then have a good chortle at my expense..! :hee

Until then, thanks everyone for taking the time & trouble to comment. See you on the other side! :)
Cheers
Ian
 

SDMFVan

New member
Joined
Sep 13, 2018
Messages
17
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Sounds like you're trying to convince yourself it's all good in spite of the evidence presented here.

It's also extremely fishy that with the price that even a basket case '59 would go for you'd be okay with it being a replica based on the price you paid...
 

Tom Wittrock

Les Paul Forum Co-Owner
Joined
Aug 2, 2001
Messages
42,567
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

After a nice and detailed conversation with Terry Mueller on this guitar, I am now agreeing with him, that this is a real 1960 Burst that has had some [not so vintage correct] work done to it.
He says the neck is reworked. Still the original neck but refinished and re-logo-ed. At that time the number was restamped.
The control cavity was also reworked and slightly enlarged. This got rid of the chew mark, made the edges [on top] thinner and also sharper on the edges [not the more rounded look we are used to].
He feels the back was refinished [and probably the sides].
I am paraphrasing from our conversation, but I feel I have his points correct.

I agree with Terry, who I trust 1000%.

A great price for a Burst with some issues. It needs some good pickups and a few minor parts to be a killer player and a real joy for Zapper!

Enjoy your Burst and ROCK ON!!!!! :dude:
 

S. Weiger

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Messages
1,744
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

After a nice and detailed conversation with Terry Mueller on this guitar, I am now agreeing with him, that this is a real 1960 Burst that has had some [not so vintage correct] work done to it.
He says the neck is reworked. Still the original neck but refinished and re-logo-ed. At that time the number was restamped.
The control cavity was also reworked and slightly enlarged. This got rid of the chew mark, made the edges [on top] thinner and also sharper on the edges [not the more rounded look we are used to].
He feels the back was refinished [and probably the sides].
I am paraphrasing from our conversation, but I feel I have his points correct.

I agree with Terry, who I trust 1000%.

A great price for a Burst with some issues. It needs some good pickups and a few minor parts to be a killer player and a real joy for Zapper!

Enjoy your Burst and ROCK ON!!!!! :dude:

Tom, any clue why the cavity was reworked? :hmm

Guitar is still with a pile of issues ;-)
 
Last edited:

Zapper

Active member
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
308
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

After a nice and detailed conversation with Terry Mueller on this guitar, I am now agreeing with him, that this is a real 1960 Burst that has had some [not so vintage correct] work done to it.
He says the neck is reworked. Still the original neck but refinished and re-logo-ed. At that time the number was restamped.
The control cavity was also reworked and slightly enlarged. This got rid of the chew mark, made the edges [on top] thinner and also sharper on the edges [not the more rounded look we are used to].
He feels the back was refinished [and probably the sides].
I am paraphrasing from our conversation, but I feel I have his points correct.

I agree with Terry, who I trust 1000%.

A great price for a Burst with some issues. It needs some good pickups and a few minor parts to be a killer player and a real joy for Zapper!
Enjoy your Burst and ROCK ON!!!!! :dude:


Tom, I LOVE YOU..! Please can I have your babies...?! :spabout Very interesting comment about the control cavity... will ask the previous owner if he knows anything about it. Given though that he inherited it from his uncle in the late '70s, I suspect it will remain a mystery...

Will still try to track down Gary & show it to him. Will then report back to you guys asap.
And please thank Terry so much from me for his time and trouble. I owe him a pint (at least..!) :dude::hank
 

JJ Blair

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2011
Messages
3,462
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

After a nice and detailed conversation with Terry Mueller on this guitar, I am now agreeing with him, that this is a real 1960 Burst that has had some [not so vintage correct] work done to it.
He says the neck is reworked. Still the original neck but refinished and re-logo-ed. At that time the number was restamped.
The control cavity was also reworked and slightly enlarged. This got rid of the chew mark, made the edges [on top] thinner and also sharper on the edges [not the more rounded look we are used to].
He feels the back was refinished [and probably the sides].
I am paraphrasing from our conversation, but I feel I have his points correct.

I agree with Terry, who I trust 1000%.

A great price for a Burst with some issues. It needs some good pickups and a few minor parts to be a killer player and a real joy for Zapper!

Enjoy your Burst and ROCK ON!!!!! :dude:

Tom, has Terry seen this firsthand? Or is he just looking at the pics?

I still have unanswered questions: Why does the neck tenon look wrong? Why on Earth would somebody enlarge the cavity? Besides, the lip where the backplate sits looks the correct size. This makes no sense to me. Why are the knobs spaced so narrowly? One or two anomalies, I can overlook. This guitar has so many.

Also, having spent hundreds of hours trying to recreate proper checking on Gibsons and Fenders, and seeing the results of various methods, that checking near the knobs looks like compressed air checking to me. If you want to spot a forgery, ask a good forger. That checking just doesn't look right to my eye.

I'm not saying that for sure it ain't real, but Terry has not answered any of the questions I have about this thing.
 

sws1

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 4, 2001
Messages
2,846
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Wow
 

Jumping@Shadows

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 11, 2003
Messages
1,330
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

I think if Terry actually had this in his hands he’d hand it back with the shake of the head within moments, and I also strongly suspect having a public endorsement it’s legit from both TM and TW based on the evidence given will do neither any credit.
 

mipstoo

Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2017
Messages
142
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

If I'm correct, I've seen other Fugazi's passing through the OP's hands... :rolleyes
 

latestarter

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 9, 2009
Messages
4,173
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Latestarter, thanks for the pic. The difference in the 'b' seems to be due to a slight dig/blemish in the lacquer. Not sure about the 's'. Very relieved to see your discoloured logo though - the first one I've seen that's the same colour as mine!

The bottom of the "s" has a lip on yours as the letter ends, whereas a standard 60 logo will have a straight line across the bottom of the lower curve. It's easy to see.
 

deytookerjaabs

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 6, 2016
Messages
1,592
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

I don't get it.

OP: "Coming to see what experts think"

Crowd: "X, Y, Z look funny"

OP: "I'm not seeing it"

Crowd: "Look again"

OP: "But, hand made and all that"

TW & Mr. Authenticator: "Yes, it is all funny and wrong cause it was bastardized, but the wood is real."

OP: "Sweet! I owe that guy a pint!"




Kind of an odd script, no? I mean, I'd be really pissed to find out it's much much more wrong than I thought after defending every nuance even if it was real. Like, re-logo and extensive wood working and refins and all that kind of wrong, not the minor quibbles you'd find with a typical "turd."


So odd....great thread BTW!!
 

Zapper

Active member
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
308
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

From what I've heard & read so far from collectors, restorers & other experts, no two vintage guitars are ever exactly the same. They are made by humans, using tools, not by robots. It's therefore inevitable that there are going to be slight differences between one reference guitar and another.

Certainly curious though as to why someone would want to open out the control cavity, but maybe it was damaged, or too small to accommodate/fit the new '70s pots. I'll try to find out and then report back.

ps. will someone please tell me what an 'OP' is...?! Ta!
 

JJ Blair

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2011
Messages
3,462
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

From what I've heard & read so far from collectors, restorers & other experts, no two vintage guitars are ever exactly the same. They are made by humans, using tools, not by robots. It's therefore inevitable that there are going to be slight differences between one reference guitar and another.

Certainly curious though as to why someone would want to open out the control cavity, but maybe it was damaged, or too small to accommodate/fit the new '70s pots. I'll try to find out and then report back.

ps. will someone please tell me what an 'OP' is...?! Ta!

The premise isn’t quite correct. Yes, they are all made by hand, and there are always slight differences here and there, but there are too many things that look “wrong“ on this to not raise eyebrows. The neck tenon looks wrong AND the headstock shape looks wrong AND the cavity looks wrong AND the knobs are too close together AND the checking is suspect, etc. when this many things don’t add up, Occam’s Razor usually indicates that it’s a fake.
 

deytookerjaabs

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 6, 2016
Messages
1,592
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

From what I've heard & read so far from collectors, restorers & other experts, no two vintage guitars are ever exactly the same. They are made by humans, using tools, not by robots. It's therefore inevitable that there are going to be slight differences between one reference guitar and another.

Certainly curious though as to why someone would want to open out the control cavity, but maybe it was damaged, or too small to accommodate/fit the new '70s pots. I'll try to find out and then report back.

ps. will someone please tell me what an 'OP' is...?! Ta!



OP, Original Poster.

Yeah, 50's Les Pauls were still assembly line guitars thus you'd expect between the jig & power tools used a degree of consistency. Those routes on the guitar weren't done by the eye/hand, they were done on pre-configured tooling setup. Whereas other things you might see a bit less consistency.
 

60'sGold

New member
Joined
Mar 4, 2016
Messages
59
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Where is teh Ganz and ahhhhhhh baloney vintige when you need them:worm
 

Zapper

Active member
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
308
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

The premise isn’t quite correct. Yes, they are all made by hand, and there are always slight differences here and there, but there are too many things that look “wrong“ on this to not raise eyebrows. The neck tenon looks wrong AND the headstock shape looks wrong AND the cavity looks wrong AND the knobs are too close together AND the checking is suspect, etc. when this many things don’t add up, Occam’s Razor usually indicates that it’s a fake.

In your opinion....
 

T.Allen

Moderator
Joined
Sep 11, 2014
Messages
2,662
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

From what I've heard & read so far from collectors, restorers & other experts, no two vintage guitars are ever exactly the same. They are made by humans, using tools, not by robots. It's therefore inevitable that there are going to be slight differences between one reference guitar and another.

Certainly curious though as to why someone would want to open out the control cavity, but maybe it was damaged, or too small to accommodate/fit the new '70s pots. I'll try to find out and then report back.

ps. will someone please tell me what an 'OP' is...?! Ta!

Yes, there are slight differences and anomalies between two different Les Pauls. What you are showing us is significantly different from what is normally seen.

OP = Original Poster, aka, the guy that started the thread.
 

60'sGold

New member
Joined
Mar 4, 2016
Messages
59
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

the longer the tale, the harder the sale. way too much wrong with this one.
 

Tom Wittrock

Les Paul Forum Co-Owner
Joined
Aug 2, 2001
Messages
42,567
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Tom, has Terry seen this firsthand? Or is he just looking at the pics?

Like you and I, and the rest of us, he has not seen it first hand. Or, have you seen it in hand? :ganz
 
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