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Valuable information to consider when evaluating the authenticity of a vintage burst

Jumping@Shadows

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Dec 11, 2003
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1,272
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

I wasn’t offered the guitar, but the UK vintage community is very small and when this popped up in Oct/November last year, I was sent the above pics and we immediately concluded it was an obvious fake and forgot about it. YMMV
 

sweiger

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Nov 25, 2002
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Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Only the checking is my opinion, and I'll say it's the opinion of somebody whose experience should be taken seriously on the matter. The other things are facts. Fact, the headstock shape is wrong. Fact, the tenon is wrong. Fact, the cavity is incorrect. Fact, the knobs look too close together.

Terry's a fantastic luthier, not a Burst expert or authenticator. You have guys on this thread, and privately off the thread, who have seen and handled either dozens hundreds of Burts individually, who all think this thing is wrong. The only thing that could make me more sure this is not a real Burst is if it had a COA from Joe Ganzler.
:rofl
 

sweiger

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Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Here's my '60. Tell me what differences you notice. I see at least 4 things wrong with your truss rod shot.

attachment.php

OP's truss rod + tr cavity reminds me of that on my 100% original '55 Junior... :hmm
Actually, OP's guitar reminds me more and more of a reworked '50s Junior magically transformed to a "burst". Not unheard of, right? Would'nt that explain a lot, if not all, of the anomalities?
 
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Ted Nugent

Member
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Dec 5, 2019
Messages
79
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

After a nice and detailed conversation with Terry Mueller on this guitar, I am now agreeing with him, that this is a real 1960 Burst that has had some [not so vintage correct] work done to it.
He says the neck is reworked. Still the original neck but refinished and re-logo-ed. At that time the number was restamped.
The control cavity was also reworked and slightly enlarged. This got rid of the chew mark, made the edges [on top] thinner and also sharper on the edges [not the more rounded look we are used to].
He feels the back was refinished [and probably the sides].
I am paraphrasing from our conversation, but I feel I have his points correct.

I agree with Terry, who I trust 1000%.

A great price for a Burst with some issues. It needs some good pickups and a few minor parts to be a killer player and a real joy for Zapper!

Enjoy your Burst and ROCK ON!!!!! :dude:

LOL
 

fakejake

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Joined
Sep 3, 2010
Messages
1,225
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Just out of curiosity, playing the devil's advocate: Could it be that Terry Mueller (or someone he knows) built this guitar and doesn't want to get exposed, so he's trying to cover this up?
(I don't want to stir up any hate, and I don't know any of the parties involved. Just posting an honest question :salude)
 

Ted Nugent

Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2019
Messages
79
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Didn't TW59 trust Ganz 1000% as well? How does Mr Mueller account for the shallow neck PU cavity leg holes that look nothing like any other burst I've seen? And what's that grey coloured filler all about? Then there's the 'enlarged' control cavity?
 
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Patek

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Joined
Dec 4, 2015
Messages
403
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

OP:- as you said you bought it from your friend. Is there any chance you can give it back to him and get your money back. Don’t see why if he’s your friend you would need to go through the courts... how long have you had it? If it’s within 30 days that is usually the legal return period in the UK for anything. But either way, he’s your friend.
this is either a replica or a Burst so mutilated with probably new body parts that it’s far less authentic than a conversion. Get rid while you still can !!!!
 

Zapper

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Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
286
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

I wasn’t offered the guitar, but the UK vintage community is very small and when this popped up in Oct/November last year, I was sent the above pics and we immediately concluded it was an obvious fake and forgot about it. YMMV

Thanks jumping@shadows... where exactly did it 'pop up'? At a show somewhere? Or a magazine? Have you got any more info on it? I bought it at the end of November but was not aware it was being touted around...
Cheers
Ian
 

Jumping@Shadows

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Joined
Dec 11, 2003
Messages
1,272
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Let’s not bring Terry Mueller’s reputation into question here as he’s had not a single thing to do with this guitar beyond looking at as some crappy pics with positive intentions to help a long term friend- we really don’t need to reach for anything beyond what the guitar itself divulges.

I and others have seen at least a couple dozen of these kinds of low tier fakes in the UK going back 20 years, and they’re tediously consistent with the same well worn ‘Cor blimey guv! Me dear old nan left me this funny old guitar- could it be real?!’, back story- fun distraction for a lockdown Tuesday though!
 

Zapper

Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
286
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

OP:- as you said you bought it from your friend. Is there any chance you can give it back to him and get your money back. Don’t see why if he’s your friend you would need to go through the courts... how long have you had it? If it’s within 30 days that is usually the legal return period in the UK for anything. But either way, he’s your friend.
this is either a replica or a Burst so mutilated with probably new body parts that it’s far less authentic than a conversion. Get rid while you still can !!!!

Patek, it's a superb guitar to play and sounds great so why give it back? If I've paid a couple of grand over the odds for a 'replica' then so what... C'est la vie! I still enjoy playing it. And it's certainly the best playing/sounding LP I've ever owned, including numerous '70s models - see below (although no doubt JJ and sweiger will soon be telling me they're all fakes....:spabout).

Just a shame "The Nile" is a) so heavy, and b) smells of vomit..! At least it's famous now though lol..! :)

92443114_156438042507555_5396932445318676480_o.jpg
 
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mipstoo

Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2017
Messages
142
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Let’s not bring Terry Mueller’s reputation into question here as he’s had not a single thing to do with this guitar beyond looking at as some crappy pics with positive intentions to help a long term friend- we really don’t need to reach for anything beyond what the guitar itself divulges.

I and others have seen at least a couple dozen of these kinds of low tier fakes in the UK going back 20 years, and they’re tediously consistent with the same well worn ‘Cor blimey guv! Me dear old nan left me this funny old guitar- could it be real?!’, back story- fun distraction for a lockdown Tuesday though!
:3zone
 

Ted Nugent

Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2019
Messages
79
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Ian or Gareth? Or is it Joey? I've seen this guitar before.
 
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mipstoo

Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2017
Messages
142
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Ok, I can't take this anymore.

The guys from Elite Vintage Guitars (https://elitevintageguitars.com), Gareth and Ian (maybe his alrerego) think we are stupid but they are making a fool of themselves.
My story with them started over a year ago when they had a fake 1963 "artic white" Stratocaster for sale and promoted on Facebook that was obviously a fake. Good advices from others were thrown out the window and the same what's happening here was happening then. The seller(s) defended his guitar by any means while others pointed out the many things that were wrong...

Since, this Gareth Ayers guy has been posting and selling a lot of crap on Facebook... Including a fake '53/'54 goldtop, a fake '58 goldtop, one or two fake '56 goldtops and very questionable bursts ('58, '59,...)
I was sent different pictures from contacts of him that were interested where it was plain obvious that some were bad copies.
So this is not a stand-alone case.

So, please stop legitimizing this crap and prevent others from taking a big loss on some forgeries fitted with period correct cases and parts.
 
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marshall1987

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,199
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Hey guys, I wonder if anyone might be able to help me restoring an old 1960 players grade 'Burst I bought recently from a mate. Even though it already plays and sounds great, I think I owe it to the 'ol girl to tart her up a bit!

The good news is that the sunburst finish is original... but that's about it LOL.! As you can see from the pics below, the pickups have been changed (to a DiMarzio SD at the bridge, and 1979 Gibson at the neck), as have the machines (to Grovers). Other changes include jack plate, all 4 pots (to 1970s), capacitors, switch tip and nut.

The bridge, tailpiece and pickup surrounds though I think are original.

My thoughts at the moment are to change the bits you can see, or that affect the sound of the guitar (eg the capacitors). The pots work perfectly so seems silly to change them - the body has been carved about a bit in the past to fit bigger pickups so it will never be a 'collectors' grade guitar.

I've attached some photos below, but as a restoration novice I'd be really grateful for any tips or advice from some of you guys who actually know what you're talking about! Similarly, if anyone has any relevant parts for sale please let me know!

Thanks very much! :)
91805257_2989131651108208_1904160612376641536_n.jpg




91915466_2992373807450659_3985106090156097536_n.jpg


91517169_2989131641108209_6570480276961492992_n.jpg


92136266_2992373687450671_4001509639706378240_n.jpg


92243388_2992374017450638_8770257325043744768_n.jpg




91877303_2992374234117283_942872989374873600_n.jpg


92670525_2992374307450609_7680263890256527360_n.jpg


[I
92015267_2992374570783916_3226744071183663104_n.jpg

Care to come clean now? :dang
 

Ted Nugent

Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2019
Messages
79
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Ok, I can't take this anymore.

The guys from Elite Vintage Guitars (https://elitevintageguitars.com), Gareth and Ian (his alrerego) think we are stupid but they are making a fool of themselves.
My story with them started over a year ago when they had a fake 1963 "arctic white" for sale and promoted on Facebook that was obviously a fake. Good advices from others were thrown out the window and the same what's happening here was happening then. The seller(s) defended his guitar by any means while others pointed out the many things that were wrong...

Since, this Gareth Ayers guy has been posting and selling a lot of crap on Facebook... Including a fake '53/'54 goldtop, a fake '58 goldtop, one or two fake '56 goldtops and very questionable bursts ('58, '59,...)
I was sent different pictures from contacts of him that were interested where it was plain obvious that some were bad copies.
So this is not a stand-alone case.

So, please stop legitimizing this crap and prevent others from taking a big loss on some forgeries fitted with period correct cases and parts.

I knew I'd seen 'em before.
 
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Jumping@Shadows

Active member
Joined
Dec 11, 2003
Messages
1,272
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

I just had a look on elitevintageguitars.com and found the same ‘70s wine red Les Paul Custom for sale as in the group photo ‘Ian’ posted:

XYdJzOX.jpg


JFmzNj2.jpg


Note the unusual bridge, grain line through the switch/upper bout and small white knick on bass side lower bout.

Also, the ‘58 Les Paul’ is the same one held by Gareth Ayers in a FB post:

xLAlOij.png


Hu7zfim.jpg


ESzkO4e.png


What could all this be about?
 
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Jumping@Shadows

Active member
Joined
Dec 11, 2003
Messages
1,272
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Here’s another couple fake ‘50s Les Pauls Gareth Ayers has on his FB:

31959yG.jpg


5NN0IE9.jpg


Now I know it’s hard to identity scam artists with obviously fake vintage guitars for sale from pics alone, but I’m going to take a swing that perhaps ‘Ian’ is Gareth, and the OP guitar is another of his crude fakes like the ones he has on FB?
 
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mipstoo

Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2017
Messages
142
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Thanks guys...

This is in no way a personal vendetta... but they are doing these things for a long time now.
And always the same story... Promoting something, getting negative feedback, stubborn denial...

And it's not that they don't find victims...

GT fake - 1.jpg
Schermafbeelding 2020-04-07 om 11.36.25.jpg
 
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