Valuable information to consider when evaluating the authenticity of a vintage burst

[agogetr]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

Hi agogetr, a couple of great posts/reminiscences there, thanks! Is the serial no of your '60 a 2 or a 7? Sounds like it could have been one of the last 'Bursts..

081xx havent checked pots, ive never opened it up! hope everything works out on your guitar. its all been pretty interesting to follow!

 

[Zapper]

Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!!

081xx havent checked pots, ive never opened it up! hope everything works out on your guitar. its all been pretty interesting to follow!

081xx eh..?! Must be a late '60s one.. Nice..! :hank

And yes, all ok on the guitar now... I threatened Court action, they repaid my money..! Gave them the benefit of the doubt, but there's no diubt now... You seen this..?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/360074468635067/permalink/393789535263560/

 

[Zapper]

Incidentally, for anyone interested in my beautiful Jumping Shadows 53/59 conversion, here's the spec. Message me for a haggle..!


1953 Gibson Les Paul Gold Top converted to a 1959 spec Gibson Les Paul Standard, including early 1960s Gibson Patent Number pickups, 1958 Centralab control harness, Grover machine heads, 1960s ABR1 bridge, replica '50s tailpiece, 1950s Gibson scratchplate, late ‘50s gold bell knobs and 1970s cream M8 pickup surrounds.


The guitar was previously completely refinished with original serial number unknown, and was subsequently restamped to 9 2513.
Cheers
Ian

 

[Patek]

Incidentally, for anyone interested in my beautiful Jumping Shadows 53/59 conversion, here's the spec. Message me for a haggle..!


1953 Gibson Les Paul Gold Top converted to a 1959 spec Gibson Les Paul Standard, including early 1960s Gibson Patent Number pickups, 1958 Centralab control harness, Grover machine heads, 1960s ABR1 bridge, replica '50s tailpiece, 1950s Gibson scratchplate, late ‘50s gold bell knobs and 1970s cream M8 pickup surrounds.


The guitar was previously completely refinished with original serial number unknown, and was subsequently restamped to 9 2513.
Cheers
Ian

was it just you couldn’t get on with the 53 neck size/shape? Such a killer guitar!! One of my favourite looking LPs. How’s the fade of the top these days? Cheers

 

[Zapper]

was it just you couldn’t get on with the 53 neck size/shape? Such a killer guitar!! One of my favourite looking LPs. How’s the fade of the top these days? Cheers

Yes I think so LOL.... must be my small hands! Fade looks great.

 

[Zapper]

To save you wading through the last 965 comments (!), I made a quick video outlining the salient points.... It's here if you interested (as over 14,000 people have been so far... most of whom though just slag me off for buying it in the first place..!!).

 

[Joshabr1]

This thread took really took me back. It had all the elements ! I have studied vintage instruments all my life and I really would like to know what the 2 well known guys in the burst community seen in the guitar that made them suspect it was real?? I think they are both fellas of very high integrity so I’m not questioning that in any way whatsoever. Nor would I ever!! Just wondering. I thought the guitar was bogus from jump street as many others did. That was a twist I didn’t see coming. But damn did it make for some compelling reading!!!

 

[Zapper]

That's kind Josh.... many thanks! Yes the thread DID get a bit fruity and compelling at times LOL...! As you would have seen, the two amigos in question, Tom W and Terry M, were fooled by the guitar just as i was. It IS a VERY convincing copy...! In fairness, both of them had doubts, but both were convinced that some of the parts WERE genuine, even if the body itself wasn't.... And Burst parts are valuable...! For instance, they were fairly certain that the pickup selector surround WAS genuine.... and as such was worth in excess of $5,000..!! See pic below.
Basically, they just wanted to 'asset strip' the guitar... and why not? They are dealers after all! Ultimately no harm done, and we've all learnt something...

 

[Doc Sausage]

There’s a curious - and seemingly unfortunate irony to this epic thread. The very thing the LPF was known for - sage advice and expert counsel, by a gaggle of people uniquely qualified to give it, were maligned by friend, foe and familiar rank and file. Some to never return.

Us ‘less than endowed’ to have the means to delve into the real burst world were probably amused with it all. But if I ever found myself in a position to call upon these folks for real advice, I’m concerned that some might be reluctant to enter into an examination again. And not sure I’d blame them. ?

 

[Joshabr1]

There’s a curious - and seemingly unfortunate irony to this epic thread. The very thing the LPF was known for - sage advice and expert counsel, by a gaggle of people uniquely qualified to give it, were maligned by friend, foe and familiar rank and file. Some to never return.

Us ‘less than endowed’ to have the means to delve into the real burst world were probably amused with it all. But if I ever found myself in a position to call upon these folks for real advice, I’m concerned that some might be reluctant to enter into an examination again. And not sure I’d blame them. ?

Man that is well said. And I agree. Anything you throw around the idea of 100k-500k or whatever amount of money in to the equation …. SHIT HAPPENS. I own pre war Gibson banjos and several other vintage instruments but have never put that kind of skin in the game. I enjoy this forum very very much though ,, and this thread is/was as epic as they come. Seems as though everyone came out of the deal unharmed.

 

[Zapper]

There’s a curious - and seemingly unfortunate irony to this epic thread. The very thing the LPF was known for - sage advice and expert counsel, by a gaggle of people uniquely qualified to give it, were maligned by friend, foe and familiar rank and file. Some to never return.

Us ‘less than endowed’ to have the means to delve into the real burst world were probably amused with it all. But if I ever found myself in a position to call upon these folks for real advice, I’m concerned that some might be reluctant to enter into an examination again. And not sure I’d blame them. ?

Doc, I don't think you need to worry about the REAL experts on the forum giving advice... Having spoken privately to a couple of them since, they absolutely loved participating in the thread..! After years of offering fairly mundane advice in fairly mundane threads, it was apparently a breath of fresh air to get some lively debate going..!

Personally, i thought it was all pretty civilised most of the time, and certainly I tried to be civil at all times. Having been convinced (by Gareth and "Beauty of the Burst"..!) that it WAS a real Burst, I did find it hard to read all the negative opinions about its authenticity. However, the weight and strength of evidence, from the majority of the 'experts', eventually persuaded me that they were right and i was not....

 

[Doc Sausage]

Doc, I don't think you need to worry about the REAL experts on the forum giving advice... Having spoken privately to a couple of them since, they absolutely loved participating in the thread..! After years of offering fairly mundane advice in fairly mundane threads, it was apparently a breath of fresh air to get some lively debate going..!

Personally, i thought it was all pretty civilised most of the time, and certainly I tried to be civil at all times. Having been convinced (by Gareth and "Beauty of the Burst"..!) that it WAS a real Burst, I did find it hard to read all the negative opinions about its authenticity. However, the weight and strength of evidence, from the majority of the 'experts', eventually persuaded me that they were right and i was not....

I guess that fantasizing about even being in the position to need the advice - and not really knowing who’s who, just seemed daunting. (aside from the more ‘famous’ participant) I have considered looking for a lower end burst (if that even exists!) more than once but could ill afford a drubbing by a good copy salesman that might even see the experts quibbling over authenticity.

Great thread though!

 

[Zapper]

I guess that fantasizing about even being in the position to need the advice - and not really knowing who’s who, just seemed daunting. (aside from the more ‘famous’ participant) I have considered looking for a lower end burst (if that even exists!) more than once but could ill afford a drubbing by a good copy salesman that might even see the experts quibbling over authenticity.

Great thread though!

I'm afraid you'll be lucky to find a REAL lower end Burst these days.... of the 1700 made between 1958 and 1960, only about 2000 survive... Your best bet is to find a really nice '53/59 conversion (and some of them really ARE nice..!) and fantasise it's worth $300k...! That's what i did... and do LOL..! ?

Every now and again, a dodgy battered old '53 Gold Top is stripped to reveal a beautiful maple top (in only 3 pieces if you're lucky..) that in the right hands (eg Jumping Shadows) can be converted into a near perfect '59 Burst.... Don't forget they were made of the same woods, glues and alloys as the Bursts by the same people in the same factory with the same tooling...

If you (or anyone in fact) is interested in such a conversion, I bought one from Mr Shadows a couple of years ago - and can happily confirm that it's an awesome job..! In fact, somewhere on the Forum is a blow-by-blow account of how he did it.... Not only does it look beautiful (and almost the right age..!), but with a PAF at the bridge and early PAT at the neck it sounds absolutely glorious...!! Unfortunately, having played slimline modern LP necks for over 40 years, I just can't get on with the fat '50s neck so I will be advertising it for sale shortly (as I need to raise a large deposit for a new house..) Here's a pic for now, but if you or anyone else would like some further information about it please message me (and I'll then message Mr Shadows LOL...!)

Good luck anyway!
Ian
ps. note the near perfect centre line and the small 2nd join between the control knobs.....

 

[m bernardi]

I'm afraid you'll be lucky to find a REAL lower end Burst these days.... of the 1700 made between 1958 and 1960, only about 2000 survive... Your best bet is to find a really nice '53/59 conversion (and some of them really ARE nice..!) and fantasise it's worth $300k...! That's what i did... and do LOL..! ?

Every now and again, a dodgy battered old '53 Gold Top is stripped to reveal a beautiful maple top (in only 3 pieces if you're lucky..) that in the right hands (eg Jumping Shadows) can be converted into a near perfect '59 Burst.... Don't forget they were made of the same woods, glues and alloys as the Bursts by the same people in the same factory with the same tooling...

If you (or anyone in fact) is interested in such a conversion, I bought one from Mr Shadows a couple of years ago - and can happily confirm that it's an awesome job..! In fact, somewhere on the Forum is a blow-by-blow account of how he did it.... Not only does it look beautiful (and almost the right age..!), but with a PAF at the bridge and early PAT at the neck it sounds absolutely glorious...!! Unfortunately, having played slimline modern LP necks for over 40 years, I just can't get on with the fat '50s neck so I will be advertising it for sale shortly (as I need to raise a large deposit for a new house..) Here's a pic for now, but if you or anyone else would like some further information about it please message me (and I'll then message Mr Shadows LOL...!)

Good luck anyway!
Ian
ps. note the near perfect centre line and the small 2nd join between the control knobs.....

View attachment 15827

here's my e-mail send me more pix's and price backstop62@aol.com

 

[Zapper]

Hi Guys! Hope you're all well. Would you Adam & Eve it?! Look what's just turned up on Reverb... Although the seller is based in Eastbourne, which is where the infamous Gareth lives, I don't think it's him. In fact I was contacted a couple of months after returning it by someone who had just bought it and who was convinced it was real LOL..! He'd seen my video about it on youtube and was telling me about how i was wrong..!! Looks like he's finally accepted it's a fake... The conclusion was that it is probably a high quality '70s copy such as a Greco or even Antoria.

I wonder how much he paid for it... According to Brian, who kindly forwarded the link to me, it was originally priced at £10k before being dropped to £8500 so my guess is that he paid something around that figure....

Gibson Les Paul Cherry Burst | Reverb

Ok so this is a controversial Gibson Les Paul. If you haven’t read the Les Paul forum regarding the 1960 Nile Burst then it’s probably best to educate yourself before considering buying this infamous guitar. This guitar has passed through various hands over the years. The question was raised that...

reverb.com

 

[Zapper]

By the way, in case anyone is interested, I've just relisted Yuuki's beautiful '53/59 conversion on Reverb as I still can't get along with the chunky '50s neck. It's a stunning guitar though and would be perfect if you've got long fingers..! Open to sensible offers from forum members of course..

Gibson Les Paul Standard 1953/59 "Burst" Conversion | Reverb

A Gold Top '59 conversion is the next best thing to a real '59 Les Paul Standard, aka a "Burst", the Holy Grail of the electric guitar world.... It would have originally been made in the same factory by the same people with the same tooling using the same wood and materials as the real thing!This...

reverb.com

 

[S. Weiger]

Hi Guys! Hope you're all well. Would you Adam & Eve it?! Look what's just turned up on Reverb... Although the seller is based in Eastbourne, which is where the infamous Gareth lives, I don't think it's him. In fact I was contacted a couple of months after returning it by someone who had just bought it and who was convinced it was real LOL..! He'd seen my video about it on youtube and was telling me about how i was wrong..!! Looks like he's finally accepted it's a fake... The conclusion was that it is probably a high quality '70s copy such as a Greco or even Antoria.

I wonder how much he paid for it... According to Brian, who kindly forwarded the link to me, it was originally priced at £10k before being dropped to £8500 so my guess is that he paid something around that figure....

Gibson Les Paul Cherry Burst | Reverb

Ok so this is a controversial Gibson Les Paul. If you haven’t read the Les Paul forum regarding the 1960 Nile Burst then it’s probably best to educate yourself before considering buying this infamous guitar. This guitar has passed through various hands over the years. The question was raised that...

reverb.com

Thanks for the update.
Well at least now it is advertised a bit less con-artist wise..
But I still don't like that the seller is listing it as a Gibson. He should state REPLICA in the headline imnsho..

 

[Zapper]

Thanks for the update.
Well at least now it is advertised a bit less con-artist wise..
But I still don't like that the seller is listing it as a Gibson. He should state REPLICA in the headline imnsho..

I agree sweiger... maybe we should notify the Reverb gestapo...? He's clearly trying to sell it on the (extremely remote..) possibility that it MIGHT be a real one... Hmmmm...

 

[gibson-r8]

His description seems perfectly honest to me.

 

[Zapper]

His description seems perfectly honest to me.

Wot? You mean calling it a Gibson when it's NOT a Gibson? Hmmmm....