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Valuable information to consider when evaluating the authenticity of a vintage burst

fakejake

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 3, 2010
Messages
1,210
Hey guys, to save another 'victim' having to read through 23 pages and 900 comments of this thread to work out whether he's been ripped off or not, I thought I'd record a quick video to summarise the issues and things to look out for. If I've missed anything, please leave a short explanation in the youtube comment section (or below on this thread.... or both..!).

Finally, thanks once again to all contributors for your help and expertise... :):salude

Over & out!
Ian Zapper Francis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIUNT5D5RS0


Nice casual shot of the Fezza at the end...
 

Zapper

Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
286
Hey guys, I've just noticed that this thread now has 925 posts.... which I think makes it the biggest thread in the Vintage '52-'60 pub... Is that right? The Black Beauty thread currently has 923.

Congratulations!! :):salude:salude
 

Zapper

Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
286
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Ok, I can't take this anymore.

The guys from Elite Vintage Guitars (https://elitevintageguitars.com), Gareth and Ian (maybe his alrerego) think we are stupid but they are making a fool of themselves.
My story with them started over a year ago when they had a fake 1963 "artic white" Stratocaster for sale and promoted on Facebook that was obviously a fake. Good advices from others were thrown out the window and the same what's happening here was happening then. The seller(s) defended his guitar by any means while others pointed out the many things that were wrong...

Since, this Gareth Ayers guy has been posting and selling a lot of crap on Facebook... Including a fake '53/'54 goldtop, a fake '58 goldtop, one or two fake '56 goldtops and very questionable bursts ('58, '59,...)
I was sent different pictures from contacts of him that were interested where it was plain obvious that some were bad copies.
So this is not a stand-alone case.

So, please stop legitimizing this crap and prevent others from taking a big loss on some forgeries fitted with period correct cases and parts.

Hi mipstoo, fascinating to now read your post above.... Are we friends on Facebook? If so could you drop me a line please? There's something I'd like to ask you. And thanks for your very interesting & helpful post! :)

Ian Francis, Billericay UK.
 

Zapper

Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
286
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Those Police caps are pretty ironic now... :salude

And YES, they are pretty ironic now LOL...!! :rofl:salude

77206840_10157427804906068_6594670280096874496_n.jpg
 

Zapper

Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
286
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

I just had a look on elitevintageguitars.com and found the same ‘70s wine red Les Paul Custom for sale as in the group photo ‘Ian’ posted:

XYdJzOX.jpg


JFmzNj2.jpg


Note the unusual bridge, grain line through the switch/upper bout and small white knick on bass side lower bout.

Also, the ‘58 Les Paul’ is the same one held by Gareth Ayers in a FB post:

xLAlOij.png


Hu7zfim.jpg


ESzkO4e.png


What could all this be about?

And Mr Y.... Can't believe you spotted my old Wine '79 Custom in their collection...! A great spot Sir..!!

Strangely they've actually kept this guitar and paid me a decent price for it.... So at least SOME of their collection is genuine..! :spabout
 

Zapper

Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
286
It's fascinating (and hilarious..!) to read back through this thread with the hindsight we all now have....! And boy is there some good authentication stuff here too. Far better and more detailed than you'll find in any book..... Well done to all!! :salude
 

Zapper

Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
286
I wonder if The Nile started out in life as one of these...? Excellent copies by all accounts.... :hmm

95170517_561340334526494_8789446848080248832_o.jpg
 

Ken Fortunato

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Messages
2,691
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Blimey Guitarmikey, I didn't notice my new numberplates before......! You got Photoshop for Christmas then eh?! Thanks for that.! :spabout:rofl

Those are yours? For some reason, I thought they belonged to Gareth...
 

Zapper

Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
286
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

The ‘chew’ mark in yours is smooth and not the result of the forstner bit catching the lip of the cavity after the inset for the pots was drilled and roughly tearing out the mahogany.

More damning is that your cavity is the wrong shape at the 12 O’Clock position where the angled secondary route leaves a definitive V shape narrowing as it meets the maple floor- yours is square, plus the ‘lip’ for the control plate is too narrow in places.

I’m pretty sure the pickup leg holes on the front cavity are too shallow as illustrated here:

wYshAIa.jpg


As for the headstock- it’s the exaggerated ‘dome’ on the top of the moustache which is clearly wrong, and notably similar to a fake ‘50s Les Paul in the UK I was shown last month:

edgwzw8.jpg


As for the wiring channel bring in the wrong spot, I’ve seen these vary a good deal in the ‘52-‘55 range, but taking all the red flags pointed out by a number of highly knowledgeable members who have scores of vintage Les Pauls at their fingertips for decades I’d take their comments on board, that it’s either the most anomalous original ‘60 Burst any have seen, or fat more likely a fairly crude replica, of the common kind seen regularly pop up in the UK every couple of years. YMMV etc

I just reread this post of yours Mr Jumping Shadows...! I should have stopped my cynicism right here and demanded a refund immediately... As Trump would say... GOOD JOB....GREAT JOB....! :):salude
 

Flogger

Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2008
Messages
431
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

And Mr Y.... Can't believe you spotted my old Wine '79 Custom in their collection...! A great spot Sir..!!

Strangely they've actually kept this guitar and paid me a decent price for it.... So at least SOME of their collection is genuine..! :spabout

I, for one, would like to see a 79 mahogany necked Custom, when every other one had a maple neck. These guys are experts?
 

Zapper

Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
286
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

I, for one, would like to see a 79 mahogany necked Custom, when every other one had a maple neck. These guys are experts?

As far as I am aware ALL Customs have mahogany necks. In fact the early Customs had mahogany bodies too..! The new ones still have mahogany necks. Did they change them for a period in the '70s then?? :hmm

https://www.thomann.de/gb/gibson_lpcstbk.htm
 

Zapper

Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
286
Blimey...! All my photos of "The Nile" have disappeared from this thread...! Anyone know why? Do they just get deleted automatically after a few months? Or is there a copyright issue??! :hmm
 

Brek

Member
Joined
May 23, 2020
Messages
37
Well this has been an education. I started to skim read towards the end, was losing the will to live. Any ways, time to shoehorn that 10 inch creamback into my Origin 5 combo, at least I shall have accomplished something today.
 
Joined
Jun 10, 2020
Messages
212
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

As far as I am aware ALL Customs have mahogany necks. In fact the early Customs had mahogany bodies too..! The new ones still have mahogany necks. Did they change them for a period in the '70s then?? :hmm

https://www.thomann.de/gb/gibson_lpcstbk.htm
Oh boy, did they.
I've a mate who had a 1980 LPC, back in the 80s. Maple neck, bridge in the wrong place... F***in' awful POS, then again, he only played punk on it.
I had another mate who switched from Yamahas to Gibson in 86. They supplied him with a couple of Standards and Customs. From what I remember they still had maple necks, but they got the bridges in the right places, by then.
I think 86 was when Henry J took over and they started making them properly again. Henry J has had a bad rap over the last few years, but people forget how bad things were at Gibson before he took over.
You'd have begged for guitars as "bad" as the recent stuff, back then.
 
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